Someone explain this to me

[kurosh]

CO raises, button calls, SB calls (2/3 structure), why is it bad for me to call with 69o in the BB? How can this possibly be -EV for me? Real explanations please.

Also, apparently K4o is not a 3-betting hand from the SB? And not a defense hand from the BB vs a button raise? Come on. I guess I am a gigantic LAG compared to the rest of you.

[Kyle]

To me this is a pretty standard call. Especially if play lots better than opponents post flop. Why do you or others think this is bad?

[kurosh]

People in IRC are telling me it is a horrible call and everyone tells me I am too loose.

[Kyle]

I am like 30/22-20 with the 2/3 structure shorthanded and I make this call all the time. My PT stats have you as 30/20 at AP after like 250 hands so IMO that isnt too loose.

[stinkypete]

calling with 96o sucks because 96o sucks. what do you like about this hand? the fact that it can make a straight if an 8 and a 7 happen to flop?

i think the K4o is close and i would play it in some cases. i think 3-betting it from the SB is pretty retarded though.

[partygirluk]

K4o is most definitely not a 3 betting hand from the SB. It is trash. Probably has less than 50% equity v a random hand! + you are not facing a random hand and are OOP and have to worry about BB too.

[disjunction]

96o

Let's look at your gutshots, which is one of the better scenarios. Suppose you flop a gutshot. Looks like this is a favorable scenario for 96o because you have odds to call, right? Except in reality, looking at the whole hand, you put in a bet preflop and a bet on the flop (assuming it's only one SB on the flop, doubtful since everyone 3 people seem to like their hands preflop). So you're really putting in 2 bets to win 10. Apologies if this is simplistic but a lot of otherwise good players on these boards seem to misunderstand the concept of giving themselves "odds to call".

Let's look at your straight. You need an 87. There are a lot of ways your opponents can make a higher straight.

Let's look at your pairs. You're not winning with a pair of 6's, and there's a good chance someone has a higher kicker on their 9.

There's a good chance a lot of cards you like (8,9,T) are dead, and with the cold calling, there's some chance of someone having 77, 88, 99, making your hand really suck.

In short, there's very few flops where you think you're ahead or have the best draw, and you can expect the action to put you to the test.

Edit: Also, your two pair could be counterfeited. Just call me gloomy gus. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
CO raises, button calls, SB calls (2/3 structure), why is it bad for me to call with 69o in the BB? How can this possibly be -EV for me? Real explanations please.


[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call 27o?

I have a hard time arguing against it really since I have a similar question in the Theory section on BB defense, but I just can't see playing 69o against 3 other players unless I flop 2 pair/trips or a straight draw and that just doesn't happen often enough to justify the call.

In 10-handed, if you know 6 people are going to be in the pot, do you call 69o? SSH says no despite the monster odds being lain. The reasoning is the same I'd guess.

[Lurker4]

I don't think it's horrible, but I doubt its +EV unless your opponents CC'ing standards are v loose or they suck bad. 96o isn't strong in high card power or connectedness and isn't suited, so it really doesnt have much going for it. with 3-coldcallers you could likely be reverse-dominated, and playing one pair on some boards, while you have good relative position, won't be very easy.

SB 3-betting K4o against a standard button open is really bad. BB defending K4o, is at the lower end of what my BB defending range is but I think calling vs button steal is fine.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
CO raises, button calls, SB calls (2/3 structure), why is it bad for me to call with 69o in the BB? How can this possibly be -EV for me? Real explanations please.

Also, apparently K4o is not a 3-betting hand from the SB? And not a defense hand from the BB vs a button raise? Come on. I guess I am a gigantic LAG compared to the rest of you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't move! Now put the PokerStove down slowly and no one will get hurt /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

The problem with a hand like 96o is implied odds. Do a hot-and-cold simulation versus three other hands and you'll see that you win quite a bit. But if you somehow opened PokerStove up and looked inside at how 96o wins, you would see many hands where the flop is K86 and the pair of sixes magically holds up or improves on the river to win.

The reality is that the present EV of this flop four-handed from the BB is very small. Often you will not even see the turn card. Many other times you will pay a bet to make a flop call that is barely above zero EV. The bets on the turn and river are going to come with negative EV as well. Usually when you have the best hand there will be little action. If they are playing you're probably losing.

96o is the easiest all-in call in the world. But if you have more chips it's a problem because on average you will lose some of those extra chips defending your preflop equity. Negative implied odds preflop is simply another way of saying that calling all-in is more profitable than calling with chips in reserve and playing the hand out. If the negative implied odds are bad enough then the preflop profit from your 7-1 pot odds is completely eaten up and the preflop call becomes a money-loser.

[geormiet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CO raises, button calls, SB calls (2/3 structure), why is it bad for me to call with 69o in the BB? How can this possibly be -EV for me? Real explanations please.

Also, apparently K4o is not a 3-betting hand from the SB? And not a defense hand from the BB vs a button raise? Come on. I guess I am a gigantic LAG compared to the rest of you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't move! Now put the PokerStove down slowly and no one will get hurt /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

The problem with a hand like 96o is implied odds. Do a hot-and-cold simulation versus three other hands and you'll see that you win quite a bit. But if you somehow opened PokerStove up and looked inside at how 96o wins, you would see many hands where the flop is K86 and the pair of sixes magically holds up or improves on the river to win.

The reality is that the present EV of this flop four-handed from the BB is very small. Often you will not even see the turn card. Many other times you will pay a bet to make a flop call that is barely above zero EV. The bets on the turn and river are going to come with negative EV as well. Usually when you have the best hand there will be little action. If they are playing you're probably losing.

96o is the easiest all-in call in the world. But if you have more chips it's a problem because on average you will lose some of those extra chips defending your preflop equity. Negative implied odds preflop is simply another way of saying that calling all-in is more profitable than calling with chips in reserve and playing the hand out. If the negative implied odds are bad enough then the preflop profit from your 7-1 pot odds is completely eaten up and the preflop call becomes a money-loser.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the correct answer.

Posting blind.....

Because offsuit hands suck unless they're high. You could very well have to hit your hand twice, and you don't hit your hand well or make a straight often enough to make the 7-1 odds worthwhile.

The K4o hand is fairly simple. You almost never have more than one overcard to a steal range. It's usually either an over/under (when you're ahead) to two middles...or you're beat/dominated. The times you are ahead, you're only a 60/40 favorite and your hand plays terribly OOP against any semi-decent stealer.

If you don't believe me about the offsuit hands, go to pokerpatterns and run a graph filtered only for non-pocketpair offsuit hands.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
People in IRC are telling me it is a horrible call and everyone tells me I am too loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are too loose. this call is not why. i dontt hink its a profitable call overall but against vvv bad players id make it b/c i like playing pots w/ bad players.

Barron