$11: Should I even be playing?

Broader question: Are SNGs where I belong?

From having read the FAQ on STTs and many of the threads, I sense that my style of play is somewhat at odds with the 2+2 conventional wisdom on how to maximize ROI. Which isn't to say that any of the CW is wrong -- in fact, just from lurking I've learned tons from everyone's insights about mini-raises, the magnified gap theory at the bubble, and push-or-fold generally.

Thing is, I can only play an hour or two most nights. Which rules out MTTs. And I'm uncomfortable with the swings of a ring game. If I lose, I'd rather it be capped at $11 or $22 per night. So STTs are probably my only option. But it may take a couple of years before I can accumulate enough SNGs to discern anything statistically significant about my skill level. If I can't play enough to discern whether I belong at $11, should I simply not bother with STTs and try to play MTTs when/if I have the time? Does this also mean PokerTracker won't be as useful?

It seems like the preferred method on the STT boards to make money (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is to maximize ROI x volume of tables. But to what extent do the insights about STT apply to those who only want to play one SNG at a time, and can probably only play one or two per night? Maybe the strategy isn't any different. I'd like to know now before the bad variance karma hits.

No point in n00bishly posting my ROI in just 18 SNGs. But I think I can hold my own at $11s -- I've read both HOHs so I'm probably not a complete donk.

(Just for kicks, I tried once at $22 and immediately felt off-balance. None of my moves at $11 worked, and it seemed like everyone zagged when I zigged.)

[ZBTHorton]

It seems like your trying to play poker for a living, 1-2 hours a day. Which obviously isn't entirely possible.

If you enjoy playing SNG's, then play them. The 11's are fairly easy. It won't take a whole lot of practice to get you used to them. Read the forum.

Also, SNG's don't always require alot of 'zigging' and 'zagging'. Possibly you are trying a few too many 'moves'.

[Hendricks433]

MTT's have the biggest variance. Just play what ever is most fun for you. Sounds like its gonna be more of a hobby for you but you want it to be like a job. Just have fun with it.

the strategy for making money should be no different for playing 1 $11 at a time versus playing sets of 10 four times a day.

that being said, the conventional wisdom is very straightforward for those games, and i think you'll find that if you follow that strategy, you'll be interested in playing more than once a day...

I work long hours at a big evil law firm and am definitely not playing poker as a source of income.

But like everyone else, I do want to win if I play. What I like about poker is that a range of approaches -- from Doyle to Harrington -- can be very successful. But if y'all are saying that the range of approach for success at STTs is much smaller, maybe my time is better spent playing a different type of tournament?

here's the thing... you have to make a decision: are you playing as an income source or for enjoyment?

you say you want to play to win, which is all well and good, but the style of play that will win you the most STTs may not be the most "fun." to be honest, the first 3-4 levels of your tournament may in fact be boring, with you potentially playing fewer than 4 hands.

i'm not saying that there aren't ranges of approaches to win STTs, but i think the general consensus here is that there is certainly one approach that works exceedingly well, which at the lower buy-ins, is a more mechanical approach: tight early, aggressive late.

if that's not your bag, maybe try other games? PLO is good times.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
But like everyone else, I do want to win if I play. What I like about poker is that a range of approaches -- from Doyle to Harrington -- can be very successful. But if y'all are saying that the range of approach for success at STTs is much smaller, maybe my time is better spent playing a different type of tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

My advice if you're playing for fun on a limited income (at least limited in regards to what you're willing to risk) is to play at a deeper stack site with slow blinds.

The regular Stars games and the games at Full Tilt would both be good for what I believe you're looking for.

Ah yes, the question I forgot to ask initially was whether there's an implicit assumption that the advice on these threads is primarily geared for STT at PP where you start off with fewer BBs.

In fact, I have been playing at FTP where you start off with t1500 (i.e., 50 BBs). Which may partially explain why I've been more successful (though again, in a tiny sample) there than if I had played at PP.

If I'm playing in a STT with deeper stacks, which elements of the CW are equally (if not more) applicable to the optimal approach?

[11t]

I suggest you settle with the fact that poker is just a fun past time.

the majority of the high-volume posters play on PP, but not everybody. there's a fair # of folks that play the turbos on stars and even the regular stars SnGs, where you start with 1500 chips (75 BB). as with most situations, with deeper stacks, you can loosen up earlier, and you will have to play more post-flop.

[benza13]

Deeper stacks allow you to play more hands from late position, especially speculative hands like suited connectors after several limpers. Overall the tight early/aggro late strategy is still best, but you can open up your game a little more with the bigger stacks.

This will allow you to have a little more fun playing the early game. Also, as you gain more experience you will probably be able to add a second (or more) tables which will help keep things entertaining and allow you to gain experience faster.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm playing in a STT with deeper stacks, which elements of the CW are equally (if not more) applicable to the optimal approach?

[/ QUOTE ]

Provided CW means "common wisdom," then yes; much of the advice posted here is geared toward the PP stucture. There are some posters who play the regular Stars format (me for one) and others who play the Stars turbos - where the blinds rise very fast but you start with a deep stack so a little more room to get involved early.

The bubble advice posted here still applies to the FTP structure, although typically you can afford to be a little more patient. Many of the posts with post-flop play will apply, especially in the middle stages where if you are going to continue after the flop most likely you will be committing the rest of your stack.

Another difference between the FTP structure and PP is that you will sometimes get heads-up with a large enough stack that moving all-in or folding are not your only options. HoH2 has excellent advice for heads-up play under these conditions.

In addition to this forum, you should also read the Pot-Limit and No-Limit forums for advice on playing when you're deep stacked.

If you're playing to improve you might also want to play the Trout tournaments every Wednesday night at Stars. You won't find competition this tough for $11 anywhere else that I'm aware of.

Cool. Sounds like I should move to PS once my bonus period at FTP expires, then. 75 BBs is close enough to the monthly home games my friends and I play (usually 100 to 125 BBs to start).

I can accept a more moderate version of tight early/aggro late, as it's closer to how I currently play.

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you settle with the fact that poker is just a fun past time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Done. I fully recognize that I can't put in the necessary hours to become a good player. "Decent" is probably the more realistic option.

On other thing to consider is the 180 SnGs on Stars.

They seem to take around four hours to finish. If you wanted to do something bigger than a typical SnG but smaller than a really big MTT, there's your best bet.

I think I'm in a similar situation as you. I like ring games, but am bored unless I am working off a bonus playing 6 tables. MTTs take too long, as you say (reminded myself last night). STTs are a nice blend. Fixed length, tourny style.

Just enjoy it, but the advice here is pretty valuable, even for a game-a-night. I play at PP, PokerRoom (PR) and Ulitimate Bet (UB). Started at UB and got used to deeper stacks. Found 2+2 very helpful for when I started more at PP. They taught me to love the shorter game style of the blinds/stacks. Working a bonus at PR. Turbos are quick (30 minutes!) and standards are still only an hour, stack feels deeper at start, but it gets to pushbot mode later (and they wonder why you're doing it more than at party where people seem used to it).
You might not need PokerTracker, but do track your poker. I haven't bought PT yet, but am tempted routinely. I do have a spreadsheet where I track them. I've found tracking over long term helps shake me out of funk when I have a "huge" loss of a dozen buy-ins. Really not so bad when you realize what a blip that is, but spread out over 2 weeks, 12 losses feels terrible (takes the fun out until I realize it's a blip, and dive back in and start winning).
Beware, you might get sucked in. I went from a couple of SnGs a week to a few dozen. Fun at volume, though certainly nothing like pros.
I keep it fun, manage my bankroll (no redeposits!) and appreciate and apply the advice from here.
Welcome to the forum, see you at the tables.
-Matt

Thanks for the great advice, everyone. Y'all have probably accelerated my learning curve by months.

What is the profile of a $11 STT? On average, how many players at the table are:

Level 1 - can hold their own in home games, but would get absolutely destroyed against quality opposition

Level 2 - may do well in home games, but doesn't know much theory and would have a negative ROI

Level 3 - has read books like HOH, understands some theory, and would probably have a single-digit ROI

Level 4 - reads 2+2, grinding their way to a 20% ROI

Level 5 - dominates, is ready to excel at the $22s

Level 6 - god-like, is ready for the $33s or higher

Based on nothing but a hunch, I suspect that the usual table has one person from level 5/6, one from level 4, two from level 3, two from level 2, and three from level 1. Does that sound about right?

Also, what's the profile of a usual table at the $22s and $33s?

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the great advice, everyone. Y'all have probably accelerated my learning curve by months.

What is the profile of a $11 STT?

[/ QUOTE ]

30% Love to watch WSOP on TV. Think going all-in is very cool. Have watched Rounders several times, but don't understand all this talk of "rake" and "position".

20% Bought a couple of poker books and skimmed through them one night before their home games. Know that any two suited is awesome because if you hit a flush you're going to totally get someone's chips.

20% Rule their home games with big moves like bluff checkraising and slowplaying Aces preflop. Have heard some talk of pot odds, but haven't followed up because math is hard and besides their style is to "play the opponent." Own 2 or more poker t-shirts.

20% Studied up on starting hands and learned that the way to win is to start with better hands than your opponent and only bet or call with the nuts unless, of course, someone keeps raising your blind and it's making you very, very angry - in which case you call off all your chips with 5-6 offsuit to show that you can't be pushed around.

9% Play tight/aggressive ABC poker. Play extra careful on the bubble in order to secure 3rd place before trying anything "too crazy".

1% Read 2plus2 and make other opponents very upset by shoving chips at them at every opportunity on the bubble. Often get accused of "ruining the game".

haha this is me!

[ QUOTE ]

20% Studied up on starting hands and learned that the way to win is to start with better hands than your opponent and only bet or call with the nuts unless, of course, someone keeps raising your blind and it's making you very, very angry - in which case you call off all your chips with 5-6 offsuit to show that you can't be pushed around.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
1% Read 2plus2 and make other opponents very upset by shoving chips at them at every opportunity on the bubble. Often get accused of "ruining the game".

[/ QUOTE ]

You will know you've made it as a player when you start getting the old "that move works every time but once" line.

[ QUOTE ]

You will know you've made it as a player when you start getting the old "that move works every time but once" line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn. I haven't gotten that one. When I do, I plan on typing, "Is this the one time you get me?" before I shove.

Today I got, "Greedy, aren't you?" after shoving into BB for the 5th straight rotation. Kinda made me chuckle.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the great advice, everyone. Y'all have probably accelerated my learning curve by months.

What is the profile of a $11 STT?

[/ QUOTE ]

30% Love to watch WSOP on TV. Think going all-in is very cool. Have watched Rounders several times, but don't understand all this talk of "rake" and "position".

20% Bought a couple of poker books and skimmed through them one night before their home games. Know that any two suited is awesome because if you hit a flush you're going to totally get someone's chips.

20% Rule their home games with big moves like bluff checkraising and slowplaying Aces preflop. Have heard some talk of pot odds, but haven't followed up because math is hard and besides their style is to "play the opponent." Own 2 or more poker t-shirts.

20% Studied up on starting hands and learned that the way to win is to start with better hands than your opponent and only bet or call with the nuts unless, of course, someone keeps raising your blind and it's making you very, very angry - in which case you call off all your chips with 5-6 offsuit to show that you can't be pushed around.

9% Play tight/aggressive ABC poker. Play extra careful on the bubble in order to secure 3rd place before trying anything "too crazy".

1% Read 2plus2 and make other opponents very upset by shoving chips at them at every opportunity on the bubble. Often get accused of "ruining the game".

[/ QUOTE ]
POTD

Don't be fooled by the humor; this description is probably quite accurate.

[ QUOTE ]
You will know you've made it as a player when you start getting the old "that move works every time but once" line.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I've made it. Not too long ago, someone said this to me, and a few hands later I called their all-in and busted them. They were not amused when I said: "works every time but once".

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're playing to improve you might also want to play the Trout tournaments every Wednesday night at Stars. You won't find competition this tough for $11 anywhere else that I'm aware of.


[/ QUOTE ]

I could be mistaken but in the trout game I was at a few months ago it seemed more like a place were good players go to relax and play loosely/strangely/recklessly/maniac-poker. I could be wrong perhaps that was their A-game and if so I am completely off track in my game and I must be lucky.

Fun yes but educational .. NO.

That of course can change in a week or a day. So YMMV.

Sample size is 1 so the usual warnings about sample size apply.

Big stack tournies:

They are somewhat a different beast. The usual advice is "play more hands ealry", "postflop matters".

Not very specific.

The same general rules apply to the 800 and 1500 though.

There are usually about ten hands, the first ten, where stupidity rules. These idiots either calm down or bust out after 10 hands.

Then the blinds slowly escalate. Sooner or later the blinds are a prize worthy of snatching and nobody but you notices. So you get a little bit looser and more aggressive.

In the 800 chip games this is frequently the bubble or nearly so and "a little aggressive" means POOSH. In the Big stack games you can find a way to be aggressive without pushing. For a few levels anyhow.

The bubble comes along and they make the mistake of playing even tighter. Take advantage of the tightness later on and you should do fine. Take advantage of the stupidity early on at your own risk, they will push with junk but the CW is not to risk all of your chips unless you are a serious favorite to be the best hand.

I hope that helps.

Also you did not mention if you play two tables at once. Adding a table actual helps you in a way because you are not so bored that you get stupid. Adding a table can cause you to tighten up and in general that is a good thing for most players. Once again YMMV, but I find boredom is my biggest source of leaks.

As for MTT and ring games. Ithink SNG improves your MTT game. The two or three table SNG are a good fast halfway between MTT and STT.

Ring games do have high variance but it never hurts to search the tables for extremely loose games. There are a few super-fish swimming out there and sometimes they turn a whole table into maniac land.

If you find a good ring game tables and only play good tables you can skew the variance towards the positive. Just play your tight game even while you see the loose player double up just play your game, good things can happen. Study and read of course, but table selection is a big part of a Ring game strategy.

--
tjh

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I could be mistaken but in the trout game I was at a few months ago it seemed more like a place were good players go to relax and play loosely/strangely/recklessly/maniac-poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played in many trout games and only a few have been hyper aggressive.

I think for the most part, just about everybody is playing to win. Some calls might look wrong and some plays seem out-of-the-ordinary for a lower buy-in ABC player (not suggesting you're a lower buy-in ABC player) but we've played against each other often.

This means having reads that have been developed over many games, not 20 minutes. This sometimes results in calling off your stack with less than the nuts, or folding pocket Q's pre-flop.


[ QUOTE ]
Fun yes but educational .. NO.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this isn't educational poker, I don't know what is. Of course, maybe I'm just a donk... /images/graemlins/grin.gif