Curtains Hand #1

[Mr_J]

I think this one is kind of interesting.

Curtains raises a poor hand oop vs a 2+2er (if I remember right). What's his thinking here and what is he hoping to accomplish? Dicuss /images/graemlins/wink.gif

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t1325)
UTG+1 (t805)
MP1 (t880)
MP2 (t1320)
MP3 (t615)
CO (t970)
Button (t995)
Hero (t2125)
BB (t965)

Preflop: Hero is in SB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t70</font>, BB calls t55

Flop: (t170) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets t60</font>, Hero calls t60

Turn: (t290) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: (t290) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets t200</font>, Hero calls t200

[Marnixvdb]

he's playing poker

[nyc999]

Why not lead out the flop if planning to call a flop and river bet? I understand controlling pot size is important, but he got one of the best possible flops for a blind steal gone bad.

[Mr_J]

A little discussion would be nice...

[zipppy]

I can see the villian taking that line with a pp such as 9,9 or 10,10. Maybe a pp lower than 8.

More often than not I think my opponent is ahead, so I'd want to make them fold on the river. I also like betting/raising on the flop to find out the strength of their hand.


&gt;&gt;ZIP

as nyc said, what i dont understand is leaving complete agression to him, does he want to call down and show his 82 to the world? is that the image he wants? controling the pot oop is understandable, but calling that bet on the river is perplexing to me, id rather fire and hope he folds his pair

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
as nyc said, what i dont understand is leaving complete agression to him, does he want to call down and show his 82 to the world? is that the image he wants? controling the pot oop is understandable, but calling that bet on the river is perplexing to me, id rather fire and hope he folds his pair

[/ QUOTE ]

by calling, though, he doesn't show his hand unless he's ahead.

[Marnixvdb]

Raising this in the first place is something I'd only do if I were playing few tables only. That said, this is how I read it: with his stack he can afford to invest some chips. He is raising to steal the blinds and from the flop onwards he plays it according to his hand strength, exercising good pot control, crusing towards cheap showdown, while getting most in vs. worse hands (through inducing bluffs).

Betting this hand (TPWK) on the flop doesnt accomplish much with deepish stacks. If he misses he should bet most flops to try and take the pot right there.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

Betting this hand (TPWK) on the flop doesnt accomplish much with deepish stacks. If he misses he should bet most flops to try and take the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he gets top pair betting doesn't do him much good, but if he completely misses then he should bet?

[nyc999]

Thinking about this hand a little more, if the villain is a 2p2 and knows Curtains (and vice-versa), maybe he had some type of read that caused him to take this line.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see the villian taking that line with a pp such as 9,9 or 10,10. Maybe a pp lower than 8.

More often than not I think my opponent is ahead, so I'd want to make them fold on the river. I also like betting/raising on the flop to find out the strength of their hand.


&gt;&gt;ZIP

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet the flop and your opponent doesnt fold you are completely in the dark as to where you stand.

I doubt a riverbet would make villain fold better pairs (what are you representing?). Hero had top pair on the flop which and wants to show it down. Villain shows weakness on turn and then suddenly strength on the river, meaning he is either strong (like rivered two pair) or bluffing, the latter being reasonably likely since hero has shown so much weakness (checking three times).

[jon462]

is it normal to bother with blind steals at level 2 at the 200s? Or is this just to stick it to the other 2+2er?

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
he's playing poker

[/ QUOTE ]

not a good answer...we learn nothing from just writing this off as "playing poker". Every move should have a distinct reason for it. IOW if he thinks his 3rd pair no kicker is good there should be a specific explanation for that reasoning.

If villain was a 2+2er one would think that he'd be pretty tight this early in the game hence the PF steal attempt. Given that BB probably called with high cards or mid PP, the flop is okay, but not great. There's a good chance a c-bet will get picked off here as the flop looks to have missed hero's hand. The small flop bet by villain rules out an overpair. So a call isn't bad.

Check-check turn...sweet, free river card hopefully cheap showdown. I still have no clue what villain has aside from its not 99-AA.

River...check, bet 200. I don't really understand this call. I've been trying to reason it out. BB doesn't have a monster otherwise he wouldn't bet out so much. If he had a K, he probably would've bet the turn (although he might've been scared you had a whiffed AK and was trying to induce a bet). 50/50 that a jack bets out or just checks behind.

I think the only hand you beat here is air or A7, and I just don't see that happening often enough to justify a call.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]


If you bet the flop and your opponent doesnt fold you are completely in the dark as to where you stand.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. Are you assuming that your opponent calls? Perhaps if they call you don't know where you stand. Also, if the villian didn't hit this flop he may be willing to fold to a c-bet, which of course also shows where you stand.

Basically, betting or check/raising will extract more information than calling a bet.

[ QUOTE ]

I doubt a riverbet would make villain fold better pairs (what are you representing?). Hero had top pair on the flop which and wants to show it down. Villain shows weakness on turn and then suddenly strength on the river, meaning he is either strong (like rivered two pair) or bluffing, the latter being reasonably likely since hero has shown so much weakness (checking three times).

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take the line the hero does until the river and check/raise, many opponents will fold a better pair (though probably not kings).

I agree, though, that the villian is usually bluffing on this river. If this is true, however, check raising will both get some better hands to fold and bluffs to fold. It depends somewhat on what you want your table image to be like.

Also, it would help to know (as someone else pointed out) what reads there might have been on the villian.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he's playing poker

[/ QUOTE ]
The small flop bet by villain rules out an overpair. So a call isn't bad.

Check-check turn...sweet, free river card hopefully cheap showdown. I still have no clue what villain has aside from its not 99-AA.


[/ QUOTE ]


I don't see where you got these conclusions from. Do you think that villian is going to slow play an overpair such as 99?

Are you assuming that a villian is always going to reraise or fold a mid pair like that preflop to a raise that looks like a potential steal?

&gt;ZIP

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Betting this hand (TPWK) on the flop doesnt accomplish much with deepish stacks. If he misses he should bet most flops to try and take the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he gets top pair betting doesn't do him much good, but if he completely misses then he should bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting narrows the range with which villain will continue tremendously. With these stacks, this is something you want to accomplish only if you are either very weak (bluff) or rather strong (value against the majority of his range). Since hero's hand is weakish but has some value, it's not a good idea to bet the flop and narrow villain's range down to something that crushes hero's range. The pot is not interesting enough relative to stacksize to semi-bluff at.

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
does he want to call down and show his 82 to the world? is that the image he wants?

[/ QUOTE ]

This crossed my mind. Maybe image at the table, but possibly image for BB since he's a regular.

Curtains talked in a recent thread about liking to play regulars who think they know how he plays, and that some will rarely defend their 15, 30 chip bb thinking it's not worth it, or questioning whether anyone would actually steal a pot that small. Maybe this is just a steal.

If curtains thinks that BB is a weak tight player, he'd have to give BB credit for a good hand preflop. If we are to give him credit for a hand preflop, there's not much we a beating on the river, so curtains must think this player defends more liberally. If this is the case, then what's the point of raising in the first place?

[zipppy]

How wrong is folding to the villian's bet on the flop?

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIPPPY

[zipppy]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif results? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sofere]

No, I'm assuming he's gonna bet more than 1/3 pot with 99 (which I consider slow playing).

[Burno]

The preflop raise has everything to do with curtains stack, methinks. I'm betting he makes this steal raise FAR more frequently with 2K in chips vs. 1K. If the BB is a 2+2'er it certainly figures in as well, as I think it's a safe assumption they would at the very least be aware of each other and maybe even have a decent history.

Because the two factors I just mentioned are obvious to the BB as well, I believe his hand range is looser than normal, maybe something as loose as 55+, A8+, TJs+, JQo+.

Anyway the flop play of curtains totally baffles me. I'd really like to know what his action would have been if the BB would have potted the flop.

Maybe the bet of 60 confused him and he decided to "call for information" knowing the BB would likely check behind on the turn if he was bluffing. Once the BB exposed himself with the turn check, curtains vowed to call any reasonable river bet. He hated the river but called as planned, and lost.


That is the only logical scenario I can construct for this line. I'm eager to hear the truth on this one.

[sofere]

Screw the results...I wanna hear Curtains train of thought far more than I care about the results.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Screw the results...I wanna hear Curtains train of thought far more than I care about the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to see/hear both.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Betting this hand (TPWK) on the flop doesnt accomplish much with deepish stacks. If he misses he should bet most flops to try and take the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he gets top pair betting doesn't do him much good, but if he completely misses then he should bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats my standard for the way I play...usually...

If I'm playing a supreme LAG (in my home games) I'll bet out either way 'cuz I will get very loose calls...but in ANY other case...

Check = hit
Bet = miss

Standard for me.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
Screw the results...I wanna hear Curtains train of thought far more than I care about the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Though I am curious here...exactly what hand are we putting villian on? I think I might take the same line Curtains did here - but with the painted turn/river...its hard to imagine a hand we bet... I mighta block bet the river...or the turn for that matter...If I went into check/calling mode - I can definitley see myself wimping out the hand. I appreciate the couragousness of the hand though...

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Betting this hand (TPWK) on the flop doesnt accomplish much with deepish stacks. If he misses he should bet most flops to try and take the pot right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if he gets top pair betting doesn't do him much good, but if he completely misses then he should bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats my standard for the way I play...usually...

If I'm playing a supreme LAG (in my home games) I'll bet out either way 'cuz I will get very loose calls...but in ANY other case...

Check = hit
Bet = miss

Standard for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's standard for a lot of people, and I think it's easy to exploit if your opponent is observant enough to attach that read to you.

It's universal enough that I assume my opponents play this way until I have a different read on them. Maybe curtains was hoping the villian had this read on him, hoping to make his check/call on the flop and check on the turn appear very strong.

[Elektrik]

hey Layne Flack,

Fold preflop.

[danger_mouse]

I'm curious why he would make a that move so early in a tournament. He is not picking up very many chips and risking a rather drastic table image if found out.

I can answer from my standpoint that the few times I do such a thing is when I'm trying to feel out the play of the guy to my left. If I learn early (and cheaply) that he is weak, then this information can be invaluable later in the tournament when a soft BB can turn into a chip ATM.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that's standard for a lot of people, and I think it's easy to exploit if your opponent is observant enough to attach that read to you.

It's universal enough that I assume my opponents play this way until I have a different read on them. Maybe curtains was hoping the villian had this read on him, hoping to make his check/call on the flop and check on the turn appear very strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mix in some bet out hits and I'm usually alright.

I gotta say I have been surprised that no one has attached this read to me. ...maybe I bet enough hits that they wimp out on the half-read...

Plus online, I don't really play with players who would notice this kinda thing...

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
He is not picking up very many chips and fueling a hugely profitable table image if found out.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[microbet]

Folded to him in the small blind and his opponent is tight. No need to look at cards. Raise.

River call is a bit loose, Sheriff, but an invitation was issued for a steal there and Curtains doesn't like to be taken advantage of.

[curtains]

Ok obviously this hand wasnt well played. Sometimes against regulars I call on the river becuase of a combination of maybe there is a chance I'm ahead, and curiosity, to simply see what they have. When you play with a guy a ton, it can be worth it, and of course there is a chance he's bluffing, although I feel that taken on its own the river call is -EV.

Of course the above is a huge cop-out Ill try to articulate better below. Please realize that every now and then I just go a bit insane and do weird things. But ok, taken in a vacuum this hand looks as though it was played by an idiot, so I should try to formulate some defense, or either condemn my play as bad.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok obviously this hand wasnt well played. Sometimes against regulars I call on the river becuase of a combination of maybe there is a chance I'm ahead, and curiosity, to simply see what they have. When you play with a guy a ton, it can be worth it, and of course there is a chance he's bluffing, although I feel that taken on its own the river call is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

the rivercall is def. the most questionable part of the hand

[curtains]

Ok, so one reason I raised preflop is because of the relative chip positions and the somewhat tightness of my opponent. My opponent however has been playing with me a bit lately and so I probably won't be making such liberal plays with them in the future.

On the flop, of course betting is normal. In some sense this is a dream flop for my hand, as now I have top pair. I decided not to bet, because if I bet, I believe that Im committed to putting all my chips in the pot if I'm raised, and for some reason I didn't feel so comfortable doing that. When I check and he bets 60, probably the best play would be to immediately raise to about 200-260. If he calls/raises me, then I get off the hand. One downside to such a method play is that it completely devalues the strength of my hand. I may as well be making the play with any 2 cards, and I hate to take a hand like top pair, and make it so that the pair actually has no relevance in the situation.

Anyway let me summarize some ideas, valid or not:

1. If I plan to bet the flop and fold to a raise, its irrelevant that Ive hit top pair, and its a shame to waste my hand's value.

2. If I plan to check raise the flop and fold to a 3-bet, again I've rendered my hand worthless. In this scenario and the above, I may as well have 62o.

3. It's possible to bet out and move allin if raised, although this is quite risky and given that my opponent doesn't have a penchant for randomly bluffing against aggressive action early in a sit and go, it could be quite a risky play as well, and one I wasnt comfortable with making.

4. In the end I decided to preserve the value of my hand at all costs by checking. If my opponent bet the pot, I would now probably check raise allin, as I have shown such little strength that their bet could easily be a simple continuation bet, and if Im called I probably have a few outs anyway. When they made the smallish bet, I decided to play passively and keep the pot small. I didn't believe my opponent would just fire away on all 3 streets without a hand. Sometimes I go into weird passive mode, which isn't so bad for my image, because a lot of these times I plan to call/raise my opponents bets, thus people cannot just expect to always steal every time I check.

Anyway obviously this hand wasn't perfect or anything. I just decided to mix it up against this guy. For those who want to know, the opponent had JJ and hit a set of jacks on the river. So I did manage to find at least one way to not double him up. I mean he slowplayed his big pair, I hit top pair, and he only got 260 chips out of me, not a terrible result for me.


5. Please note that the river call I felt there was some chance I was ahead and also I just really wanted to see what my opponent had. What kind of hands would they play in such a weird manner? The information gained MAY be worth the 200 chips in this case. Everytime you get to see your opponent's hand in such a situation it helps you formulate an overall idea of how they play, and given that I played about 10 sit and gos with them last night, and expect to play with them very often, this can be valuable. However I would never make such a call unless I felt there was some chance my hand was good, which I believe there is, given the weakness that I exhibited throughout the hand.

[ravensfan]

Thanks Curtains, this is great analysis and very helpful!

Just out of curiousity: if you bet say 1/2 pot on the flop, what percentage of the time does the average villian fold/call/raise? And, how often does a very tight villian who called this bet react? I'm guessing that since they'd rarely defend this early in the tourney, you figured there was at least an outside chance (i dunno 25%-30%) that they had an overpair and therefore well worth your while (implied odds) to wait for one of your 5 outs for free?

[curtains]

I didnt consider for a second that my opponent might have an overpair actually /images/graemlins/smile.gif Most normal people would reraise there. I dont think my opponent would have gotten too out of line if I bet the flop. Im not saying my play was correct, but those were just some thought processes behind it, which when used in the right situations can be valuable.

Another note...I know that its possible my opponent may lurk here along with some other regulars. For this reason I am always analyzing their play very closely to see if I think they may be trying to make plays on me based on information posted on 2+2. I was actually getting such a sense about my opponent in this hand, but it later dissapated after finishing the remainder of my events with them. In any case, after the preflop call, I thought there was a chance they read one of my earlier posts that mention how I will raise some tight players in this spot quite often. When they turned over JJ I realized that it likely wasn't because of this post that they decided not to fold their hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ravensfan]

Hey Curtains, thanks for the response.

OK, if they felt that reraising say, 9s or 10s (or h@ll, even Js /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), would lead to an coin-flip all-in battle, would pushing still be a normal play this early? ie. maybe they didn't want to have to fold a good pair with position this early if you pushed, and wouldnt be comfortable calling? I guess i'm wondering if playing one of these pairs with position early in the tourney for set/overpair value would be better than ending the hand? Who knows, maybe he read you as aggressive either from your general posts here, or from your play that tourney, and figured it would be a good spot to trap you? Fwiw, i'm kind of trappy and my instinct is to trap these spots like the villian did. Do you think this is a leak? (i still play the 800 chip tourneys though)

I can definitely see how there'd be some more information to consider with these extra posts you're adding? Theoretically, i suppose it can help your game?!

[curtains]

The by far normal play for my opponent wolud be to reraise with 99 or TT. Flat calling is very abnormal.