Did Arnie Really Deserve This?

[lehighguy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051226/ap_on_re_eu/austria_schwarzenegger

[HopeydaFish]

They'd be hypocrites to continue honouring a man whose beliefs run contrary to their own. Most Western Europeans feel very strongly that the death penalty is barbaric and wrong. This isn't a trivial matter for them.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I think it was much because the last execution was of a black man. Most Austrians and Germans are very eager to show that they are not racist (could be connected to a history indicating otherwise, I guess /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

[lehighguy]

Does it really matter that he was black?

Would it have been more humane if he was white?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

No, it does not matter for me. However, it is a common belief in Western Europe that the American justice system is racistic and that black men are executed for crimes whites wouldn't, that makes it tough for Austrians to be associated with him.

[lehighguy]

He is governor of a state were the practice has popular support (im basing this on the fact that they still have it). Are all of his accomplishments in life null and void because his views reflect those of the people he governs. Or because he follows the law of this state. It seems harsh.

We get yelled at when we tell any other culture what they are doing is wrong no matter how repulsive it is, but its ok to criticize other peoples cultures if it's America your criticizing.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
He is governor of a state were the practice has popular support (im basing this on the fact that they still have it). Are all of his accomplishments in life null and void because his views reflect those of the people he governs. Or because he follows the law of this state. It seems harsh.

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I agree it is silly to blame him for the executions. California is a democracy. This whole issue is a symbolic one. They are showing that they disagree with the policy executed by him.

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We get yelled at when we tell any other culture what they are doing is wrong no matter how repulsive it is, but its ok to criticize other peoples cultures if it's America your criticizing.

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This is a false assumption. If he would become president of Iceland and do the same, the same criticism would arise. But, the US and Western Europe used to be portrayed as sharing common beliefs. We do not, the perspective on the most fundamental issues are different. When discussing politics/philosophy with i.e. Thais or Africans, Western Europeans have more in common with them than with Americans. It is like a love relationship where the love is gone, but the breakup is still painful and thus creates some frustration (as this episode).

[Peter666]

Note to self: if you're going to commit murder, do it in Austria.

[lehighguy]

You guys have a lot of strange misconceptions about the American justice system. A lot of black men go to jail, but a lot of black men also committ crimes. What are we suppose to do, not arrest them because they are black?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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You guys have a lot of strange misconceptions about the American justice system. A lot of black men go to jail, but a lot of black men also committ crimes. What are we suppose to do, not arrest them because they are black?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not looked into it enough to know if it is racist or not, I am just quite sure that if you would conduct a poll here a majority would say yes.

[lehighguy]

I really don't think our fundamental views are as different as you think. I think a lot of it is either exaggerated by Europe or based on current excesses by the Bush administartion (excesses which I think if you polled people on they would come out against).

We still think democracy is the best system, torture is wrong, all men are created equal, etc. Do you really think you have more in common with the third world? That seems crazy to me. Most of the cultural and political systems there are way off compared to western europe and america. It isn't even close.

[lehighguy]

Polls have caused a lot of trouble for America, I would keep them out of Europe if you can.

In any event, I've seen some crazy misconceptions of what goes on in this country when I visit another country. I don't even know where you guys come up with the stuff sometimes.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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I really don't think our fundamental views are as different as you think.

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They really are, not easy to find matters on which we agree anymore.

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I think a lot of it is either exaggerated by Europe or based on current excesses by the Bush administartion (excesses which I think if you polled people on they would come out against).


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The fact that Bush could get elected and then reelected shows how deep the disagreement on fundamental issues are. He would be unelectable in Europe due to fundamental issues.

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We still think democracy is the best system,

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Strong belief in this and i.e. freedom of speech we share.

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torture is wrong,

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Then why do you keep torturing people?

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all men are created equal, etc.


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No, here lies much of the disagreement. In US philosophy all Americans are created equal (Afganis can be held without trial etc.), in Western Europe all men are created equal.

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Do you really think you have more in common with the third world? That seems crazy to me. Most of the cultural and political systems there are way off compared to western europe and america. It isn't even close.

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Third world is a bit too wide. But in general we have more common mindset with the third world population (if you disregard the moslem world) than the US population. However, many third world governments acts against the will of its people.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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In any event, I've seen some crazy misconceptions of what goes on in this country when I visit another country. I don't even know where you guys come up with the stuff sometimes.

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True, it is a mix of truths, assumptions, rumours etc.. I personally try to stick to the truths though.

[lehighguy]

"Then why do you keep torturing people?"

Americans oppose torture 2 to 1 even in instances where the suspect is a known terrorist that probably has information that could prevent an attack. I imagine it goes even higher in other less dramatic instances. So Bush is doing it against the will of most Americans (and congress).
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i10abcnews.htm

"No, here lies much of the disagreement. In US philosophy all Americans are created equal (Afganis can be held without trial etc.), in Western Europe all men are created equal."

A lot of the reason the US doesn't agree to things like the ICC is because we don't agree with the laws. Europe wouldn't sign an agreement if it stated women could no longer get divorces, and similairly American shouldn't have to sign agreements when it doesn't endorse the precepts.

As for enemy combatants caught in war there is an entirely different set of rules for them. You shouldn't expect some Taliban in Afghanistan that is shooting at Americans to be read his rights and get a phone call. There is a whole series of rules surrounding POWs.

"Third world is a bit too wide. But in general we have more common mindset with the third world population (if you disregard the moslem world) than the US population. However, many third world governments acts against the will of its people."

I think you overestimate your similairities and underestimate your differences. Most of the world has wildly different opinions on matters of marraige, free speech, family, women, religion, etc. Life and culture in India is much more different from Europe then life and culture in America. Even a developed country like Japan is different.

If your born in America or Europe, your life will be relatively the same. You can choose whether or not to obey your parents. You choose your spouse or none at all. You aren't discriminated against in government or the workplace based on race or religion. You can say what you want, express what you want. You can open your own business. Etc.

A lot of these things you can't do in other countries. Your marraige is arranged, your family chooses your career, you can't open a business, your divided along racial and religous lines, you don't have free speech.

I think Europeans exagerate tiny differences just so they can feel more unique. Because, at the end of the day, they are really tiny when you think about it.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you overestimate your similairities and underestimate your differences. Most of the world has wildly different opinions on matters of marraige, free speech, family, women, religion, etc. Life and culture in India is much more different from Europe then life and culture in America. Even a developed country like Japan is different.

If your born in America or Europe, your life will be relatively the same. You can choose whether or not to obey your parents. You choose your spouse or none at all. You aren't discriminated against in government or the workplace based on race or religion. You can say what you want, express what you want. You can open your own business. Etc.

A lot of these things you can't do in other countries. Your marraige is arranged, your family chooses your career, you can't open a business, your divided along racial and religous lines, you don't have free speech.


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Life is very different, but the philosophy on life/ interhuman relations etc. is fascinatingly similar.

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I think Europeans exagerate tiny differences just so they can feel more unique. Because, at the end of the day, they are really tiny when you think about it.

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I don't think so, honestly. It comes from a deep desire to create a better world and from a deep fear about the sentiments in the US.

[lehighguy]

"I don't think so, honestly."

Your entitled to your opinion. Back when the Soviet Union was around the differences seemed quite small no? I think people inflate the differences because it helps them feel unique. At the end of the day, we aren't at eachothers throats and we would help eachother out in a time of need.

"It comes from a deep desire to create a better world and from a deep fear about the sentiments in the US."

I don't know what you think our sentiments are. Most of us are isolationists. No one wants to be in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those who support it do so reluctantely, because they feel fighting there prevents fighting here.

Contrast that to China and Taiwan. China wants to invade and subjagate the country for no reason other then nationalism, ego, and expansionism. If China succeeds it will never leave Tiawan. American's want to leave Iraq and Afghanistan the first chance they get.

If you think we are the evil empire, your watching too much Al Jeezera. We would rather be left alone.

[lehighguy]

But didn't you know we all carry guns everywhere we go.
And Santa Clause is the captain of a Hawian sail boat :P

Those are two of the funnier ones.

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When discussing politics/philosophy with i.e. Thais or Africans, Western Europeans have more in common with them than with Americans.

[/ QUOTE ]

This list (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html) of countries with the death penalty includes many in Africa and Thailand.

Thailand is also one of places often mentioned when discussing rendition (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/05/AR2005120500240_pf.html).




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It comes from a deep desire to create a better world and from a deep fear about the sentiments in the US.

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You're half right.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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Contrast that to China and Taiwan. China wants to invade and subjagate the country for no reason other then nationalism, ego, and expansionism. If China succeeds it will never leave Tiawan. American's want to leave Iraq and Afghanistan the first chance they get.

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China (Russia as well) gets away with a lot of human rights abuses since the focus has been on the middle east and the US, I agree on that.

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If you think we are the evil empire, your watching too much Al Jeezera. We would rather be left alone.

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I have watched it for 2 minutes, and I did not understand a single word /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I don't look upon it as an evil empire, because many of the actions conducted are not with evil intent.

[lehighguy]

"China (Russia as well) gets away with a lot of human rights abuses since the focus has been on the middle east and the US, I agree on that."

I think the reason we get such a hard time is because people have a high opinion of us, whereas they have given up on the other two.

Alot of times too I feel people expect far too much out of us.

We aren't suppose to send troops all over the world, but we are suppose to provide all the manpower for peacekeeping and police Darfur.

We aren't suppose to use oil or be capitalists, but we are suppose to buy everyone elses goods so thier economies can grow.

We aren't suppose to impose our believes, but we are suppose to enforce human rights.

Mostly, you just get the impression that other countries talk about doing things while we are suppose to actually do it. People talk about Darfur, but the US is expected to actually do it. People talked about Kuwait, but the US did most of the heavy lifting. If Taiwan is invaded or Kim John goes crazy or something else happens everyone else will talk about what should be done while we are expected to actually do something. When you are constantly criticized no matter what course of action you take you just want to say [censored] it all.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys have a lot of strange misconceptions about the American justice system. A lot of black men go to jail, but a lot of black men also committ crimes. What are we suppose to do, not arrest them because they are black?

[/ QUOTE ]

there is a lot of evidence that blacks are treated much harsher by the justice system than whites.

link (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539)

I believe there is similar evidence that blacks also recieve longer sentences for similar crimes, but i don't have any links or resources to back that up right now.

[MelchyBeau]

I'm confused. Are you upset that his name was on a stadium, or that it was taken off.

The article states Arnold asked for it to be taken off.

Melch

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Your points have some validity. Understand in this context that you are a superpower and you conduct actions that influence the lives of citizens of other countries to a higher degree than most countries.

P.S. There are other countries who are now willing to intervene in Darfur.

[HopeydaFish]

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The article states Arnold asked for it to be taken off.

Melch

[/ QUOTE ]

He asked for it to be taken off because he knew that it was inevitably going to be taken off anyway:

"After Williams' December 13 execution triggered a firestorm in Europe and reignited calls for Graz's stadium to be stripped of Schwarzenegger's name, the governor opted for a pre-emptive strike: A week ago, he wrote a letter to local officials ordering his name to be removed and said he was returning an ornate ring of honor that Graz officials gave him in 1999."

Sounds like he was sick of his name being dragged through the mud by the politicians in Graz so he put an end to it on his own.

[BCPVP]

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P.S. There are other countries who are now willing to intervene in Darfur.

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Kinda late now, don't you think? Besides, what's stopping them?

[ACPlayer]

Commit the crime in America and hire a very good lawyer.

In Austria you will be punished.

[ACPlayer]

It may or may not be racist but it is definitely stacked against the average blackperson.

THis is because the usual face off in court for the average black person accused of a heinous crime is: a team of lawyers with essentially limitless resources driven by a frenzied media against an overworked public defender with highly limited resources.

Of course, the level of racism in the police is likely higher than inthe average population -- the reason usually offered is that blacks commit more crimes and therefore they are more likely guilty of any crime they are accused off. But once it gets to court the issue is usually the resources.

[ACPlayer]

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I think the reason we get such a hard time is because people have a high opinion of us, whereas they have given up on the other two.


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Perhaps. But to offer a strawman:

Perhaps it is because we project a very high opinion of ourselves in words but dont always follow up in actions. This is specially true these days IMO.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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P.S. There are other countries who are now willing to intervene in Darfur.

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Kinda late now, don't you think? Besides, what's stopping them?

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Very late, but it will happen now.

[bobman0330]

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P.S. There are other countries who are now willing to intervene in Darfur.

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Kinda late now, don't you think? Besides, what's stopping them?

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Very late, but it will happen now.

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A successful EU intervention in Darfur would vastly raise my opinion of Europeans. Just in case you needed any more incentive. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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A successful EU intervention in Darfur would vastly raise my opinion of Europeans. Just in case you needed any more incentive. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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We are not member of the European Union, but our government has promised that Norwegian troops will be on the ground during 2006 ( /images/graemlins/mad.gif still not quick). They have said an international force will be established and that they are discussing with other countries who will deploy what etc.. It remains to see if it will be able to protect everybody though, I doubt how big it will be....... (it also needs to maintain peace in Southern Sudan).

[Martin Aigner]

This is just BS. Living in Austria I followed the stroy about executing this guy a little bit, and it was hardly ever mentioned, that the guy to be executed was black. The story was more about the turnaround in his life (former gang leader, then writing children´s books, affirming that he was innocent, ...)

Now this was what the story was all about. It had nothing to do that he was black.

Martin Aigner

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just BS. Living in Austria I followed the stroy about executing this guy a little bit, and it was hardly ever mentioned, that the guy to be executed was black. The story was more about the turnaround in his life (former gang leader, then writing children´s books, affirming that he was innocent, ...)

Now this was what the story was all about. It had nothing to do that he was black.

Martin Aigner

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Ok, thx for the info. I wrote "I think", because it was an assumption. I did not write: "it was because he was black".

[Martin Aigner]

I might be wrong, but as far as I know the reason for A.S. to be upset with Austria (and particulary Graz) was, that there not only was lots of critisism for him not using his power as govenor to pardon the guy. It even went so far that some politicians wanted to have his Austrian citicenship terminated (he has both, Austrian and US citizenship). The politicians who suggested this were, as far as I know, not leading members of any party in Austria, but local unknown local politicians. Probably they saw their chance for their own 15 minutes of fame. Nobody but A.S. really took them seriously. It might be that he was sort of upset that some unimportant politicians criticised the governor of California. Anyway, to tell the truth, not too many people really cared that his name was taken from the stadium. Actually, for marketing reasons it´s even better this way, since A.S. didn´t pay for his name to be put on the stadium, and now it´s possible to find some company to pay for it (quite common in Germany these days).

What really hurts Graz a little bit is, that A.S. doesn´t allow Graz to use his name for any other marketing possibilities either.

Anyway, to understand the reasoning for Austrians (and other Europeans) to be upset about his decision one probably has to grow up in a society where death penatly is a big NO. Due to a higher socialistic influence in politics, there is less violence on average in society in Europe. A couple of years before you didn´t find any street gangs or "dangerous areas" the way you do in the US. Of course we had to pay the price for it in higher taxes. These days, this isn´t that true anymore in some states in Europe (see e.g. the riots in the suburbs of Paris). There are different reasons for this, such as a bad economy, especially in Germany; lots of immigrants without proper arrangements for integrations; cutting the social contributions from the state due to less money (due to bad economy), ... . Still, without knowing the figures (and being too lazy to google them) I´m sure that there are still way less killings and other serious assaults in Europe than in the US. Therefore the call for death penalties isn´t nearly as strong as it is in the US. Maybe, and we all hope that it will never occur, there would be a call for death penalty if we had the same statistical numbers regarding serious assaults as the US. But I seriously doubt that a capital punishment does or can change the likeihood of any crime.

One other thing to consider, why Europeans are against the decission of AS is that the US lately has become to be known as a state who kicks at human rights whenever it fits their opinion. Now one can argue that there are way worse countries than the US (China, Russia, North Korea, ....) regarding human rights, but there is a huge difference: The US was some sort of example for Europe, the US freed us from the Nazis, the US was our strong partner against the Eastern Bloc. Now these days there is a huge gap between Europe and the US (due to tons of reasons). If A.S. had shown any mercy on that guy (and all the other people on death row so far and to be), it would have had some sort of symbolic character for Europeans. Since he didn´t pardon that guy, this fits once again in the above mentioned gap between Europe and the US.

One last thing: Of course we know that there are people on death row on lots of states of the US, but California is, at least for us Austrians, the state we follow the most.

Martin Aigner

[lehighguy]

The death penalty isn't regarded as a human rights issue here, it is just another punishment. It depends alot on the state, but I doubt it comes anywhere close to Europe.

In general though Europe seems really soft on its criminals. I mean why don't you give Milosevic a sensual message.

[Martin Aigner]

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The death penalty isn't regarded as a human rights issue here, it is just another punishment

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Of course that´s true. What I wanted to say is that the way the US treats human rights these days is in unacceptable for Europeans. Now if A.S. would have pardoned that guy it would have been a small sign that the US acts not always in a "I-feel-this-is-my-right-and-therefore-I-do-it" and "Who-cares-what-the-other-think" mode.

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In general though Europe seems really soft on its criminals. I mean why don't you give Milosevic a sensual message.

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Well, I guess that just fits in the picture, that the average European has about the average American.

The reason why we don´t give a "sensual message" is, that we live in a constitutional state, and EVERYBODY, good or bad, has the same rights! I hope, you didn´t mean it that way it came across.

Martin Aigner

[lehighguy]

When you are a genocidal mass murdered you deserve to be punished. He isn't being punished. He will live out his days in relative comfort and security.

There is no sense of justice there. And no real deterent against future actions. If I'm thinking of committing genocide, and the worst thing that will happen to me is I'll get 3 square a day in a clean prison with TV, basketball, and walks in the garden then why shouldn't I.

If Hitler were alive today would he recieve the same treatment as Milosevic? If so your lucky we've protected you from such men for so long.

[Martin Aigner]

If he dies before there is a verdict, than so be it. I think society as a whole is better off to give everybody the same rights, no matter what he did. But I guess we will never agree on this one. Although this makes for an interesting topic.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

If you look upon Europeans and handling you should look upon the totality when judging (how long he was able to stay in power etc.) the effort, and the effort as a whole was a shame /images/graemlins/mad.gif. We are a bit better prepared to prevent something similar to happen again, but not well enough prepared /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

[lehighguy]

You can give him a fair trial, but when he's found guilty by the mountain of evidence what are you going to do to him? Practically nothing really. The penalty for genocide is a life of relative comfort. Perhaps there should be a harsher sentence for such crimes.