Question for Dynasty

[MRBAA]

You recently stated you win about 2bb/hour at 4-8 he these days. I don't keep precise stats, but estimate I lose about 1/2 to 3/4 sb/hour. I'm learning to play he (it's been under a year and I've played about 150 hours at 3-6 and 4-8 live, about 50 at 2-4 online (where I win about 1 sb/hour)

At 5-10 stud, which I've been playing longer, I win about 1 bb/hour. The players don't seem any better in either game, but I do not have the clear feeling for where other players are at or how to play my hand in he that I do in stud.

Most disturbing: when I play Turbo 7-stud set up to the same limit I destroy it -- and whip Rosetta Stone in challenges. But when I play Turbo he set up at 4-8 I struggle to break even, just like live, and lose more than I win in challenges with Mike (the adviser).

I've read Jones, Sklansky and Ciaffone/Brier books, and think mostly what I need is playing experience (I am strictly a recreational player who plays perhaps once a week). But any observations you have or key thoughts would be of interest.

[Clarkmeister]

You asked the right person. I've known Dynasty for a while now and when he was learning, he also struggled getting his Holdem game to "catch up" to his stud game.

I think the turning point for him (and maybe this will help you) was when he started to really ratchet up the aggressiveness. He had a bad case of Weaktight-itis and eventually overcame it.

He can elaborate more, but perhaps you can start looking there.

Also note that there is nothing wrong with being better at stud than holdem, especially if there is a good selection of stud games in your area. I've always wanted to get good at omaha8 but there simply isn't enough game selection in our area, and I don't have the patience for it. So for me, holdem became the game of choice. Maybe for you its stud.

Anyhoo - maybe that'll tide you over til he responds.

[Bob T.]

First, at those loss rates, if they are accurate, on a small sample, you are beating the game. You just aren't beating the rake. You probably only need to plug a few holes, and you will be able to come out ahead of both the rake and the game.

So, obviously, the second thing, is post some hands where you had problems, and lets see where the leaks are, and maybe we can fix them.

Finally, keeping in mind my qualifications as the seventh worst low limit stud player on the planet, one of the biggest differences between the two games, is that once you are behind, it is much harder to catch up in holdem, than it is in stud. There is a huge difference, between AJ, and AK, and perhaps, you are finding yourself behind with kicker problems too often.

The few posts of yours that I remember, seem to be fairly accurate, so remember that you are close to breaking into the win column, if you are only losing a fraction of a small bet an hour.

[Joe Tall]

I'm no where near a Dynasty caliper of a player. However, I've been playing only for 3 months at Foxwoods and for about 4 months online. I play 4/8 Live and 1/2 online and I have shown an hourly rate of 2.7BB/HR live at only 127 hours and a online rate of 1.6 BB/HR (I have a lower rate online due to the fact that I played online before I started posting here).

Therefore, I think there may be leaks in your Hold'em game. My suggestion to you is to post some hands you play here in this forum and let the great players tell you what you did right or wrong. I've actually made a goal of posting at least 2 hands a week. Also, I try to have no fear in responding to someone elses post, many times I've been wrong and it's helped me evolve into a winning player.

I really became a better player when I posted hands I played poorly, I had no shame in posting them here, they've made me a winning player.

Hope things work out for you and looking forward to seeing some hand postings.

-Larry Joe

[JTG51]

I'm guessing the biggest difference is just your comfort level with the two games. I have a feeling that since you aren't quite as comfortable with hold'em, your play is a little too weak.

I seemed to remember us disagreeing about a hand a few of months ago where I thought your recommendations were too weak. I did a little search and found the thread. I think our discussion in that thread shows that you need to 'toughen up' your hold'em game a bit.

Check it out (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=233139&page=&view=&sb =5&o=)

[MrDannimal]

So who are the other 5 (worst low-limit stud players), because I have to be in there.

[Bob T.]

Not sure, but if I ever find them, I'm hosting a home game. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JTG51]

I'm definitely one of the (un)magnificent seven also. Count me in for that game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[rigoletto]

I don't keep precise stats

Start doing this as of right now! Most people who don't keep records deem themselves to be small winners, break even or small losers when they are in fact losers. You don't want to fall into this category. Excact records also help you determine if you've improved your game. Good players have an edge in poker, but the edge is small, so guestimating a loss of ½ sb/hr could just as well be 4 times as big.

[Dynasty]

There's something interesting about that 2 BB/hr figure in the Vegas 4-8 games. It's a fairly recent development (last 6-9 months). When I was playing low-limit games regularly, I was winning but only at about a 1BB/hr rate.

Then, I moved up rather quickly to the Mirage 20-40 game and played there almost exclusively for about half a year. I wasn't picky about game selection and was often playing in very tough afternoon games filled with regulars. The most positive result of that was that it forced me to make lots of subtle improvements in my game, especially in hand reading. I wasn't even completely aware of how much I was improving. During that time, I didn't play any low-limit hold 'em.

When I took some time off from playing last winter and played low-limits just for fun, the games felt soooooooo much easier to beat. It was like finally being able to consistently hit 90 mph fastballs on the corners and then suddenly only being pitched 65 mph pitches down the middle of the plate.

So, your last comment that "mostly what I need is playing experience" is probably very accurate. No amount of reading will replace that.

[Homer]

I would provide you with some thoughts, but unforunately I'm not Dynasty so I can't help you.

-- Homer

[Porcupine]

Clarkmeister wrote " I think the turning point for him (and maybe this will help you) was when he started to really ratchet up the aggressiveness. He had a bad case of Weaktight-itis and eventually overcame it. "

This is probably the single biggest thing that I've learned from the forum. I now raise (or at least consider raising) in spots where I would have never thought of raising before. I even have some of my (non-forum reading) friends raising and later saying that they are no longer "scared of monsters under the bed".

I haven't played enough recently to fully shake the "weakthight-ies", but at least am psychologically prepared to do so. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[JTG51]

Yeah I was thinking, it's funny how about a hundred of us jumped in here and answered a question addressed to a specific poster.

[Nottom]

I'm pretty sure I'm in that list as well

[CrackerZack]

And this is a point that gets so many people. I hear so often at the tables, "Look what he was raising on, he had nothing... blah blah blah" which is usually when i or another aggressive player raised on the flop with only over cards or a draw of some sort, then hit the draw on the turn and continued betting. its amusing.

[Mike]

As long as we are all replying.... Learning Stud first, and playing HE without a clue, all I knew was agression payed off in HE while it gets you broke in stud.

The second thing I learned was if you don't have em scared of you within the first 45 minutes, you better go home while you still have money. Good HE players are like snarling snapping mangy dogs who fight all comers. You have to fight back and be just as mean or meaner - in your play that is.

Later, I started learning about how bad I played HE, and it took me a long while to get it right again.

[HeartsKing]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm no where near a Dynasty caliper of a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a Dynasty caliper an instrument used to measure thin (small) value bets? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Joe Tall]

I think if MRBAA wanted so send a Private Message he would have done so. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

When I saw that you responded, Homer, I was excited to learn something, sadly, I did. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
an instrument used to measure thin (small) value bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I always thought that was a Tommy Angelo.

[Homer]

I was making a joke. I guess my dry sense of humor doesn't come through in posts. I assure you if I had something of importance to say, I would have said it.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

I was making a joke. I guess my dry sense of humor doesn't come through in posts. I assure you if I had something of importance to say, I would have said it.

As was I, but is it my fault that I'm the one that is overly-dry? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bernie]

i think this also shows a great point about taking a shot at a higher limit game. if anything, it will make you better. (note: make sure you have a solid game first. especially with the basics. or at least an amount set aside that wont break you)

ive found in my forays into higher limits or tougher tables, the next lower limit sessions i also started playing much better.

sometimes you can go up to higher limits to pay for lessons to beat the lower limits.

b

[MRBAA]

Thanks for all the responses -- I should mention that in the ultra-soft games at Foxwoods and Mohegan, I've won. It's the tough NYC club 4--8 game (still not that tough, but as it's an underground club it's all regulars and pretty much everyone knows how to play at least some) that's been giving me problems. Unfortunately, I don't have much game selection available.

I definitely think the aggression advice, the awareness of kickers and underdraws and of the vital importance of position will help.

[ResidentParanoid]

It's too bad you don't post more, Homer. You seem to have a lot to contribute to the forum.

[Homer]

It's too bad you don't post more, Homer. You seem to have a lot to contribute to the forum.

I make 2000 some odd posts trying to offer sound advice to people and not once do you thank me for my efforts.

I make 1, count em, one stinkin post as a joke and you get on my case.

Something is wrong with this picture.

-- Homer

[anatta]

No doubt playing higher helps improve your skill level. Also, when I started to play 8-16, I no longer got upset with the bad beats at 4-8. Similarly, with more play at 20-40, I am much more relaxed at 8-16. One problem is bringing my "A" game to the lower limit games. I tend to play way too loose and gamble it up when I am waiting for a seat. On the other hand, having fun and cheaply purging the gambling devil has its value.

[Joe Tall]

I almost rolled over in my chair when I read Paranoid's reply...

My thoughts:

'Post more!?!?! WTF does Homer have to do lose a finger? He's already got CARPAL TUNNEL!!!'

I think what I was getting at when I posted my sacastic reply was, 'I wonder what realization, what was the transition, what made Homer into the player he is today?' My reply was just me, being the donkey that I am and I apologize if it came off wrong, bro. I hope you don't leave us, Homie, I not sure what I'd do, I guess I'd be left with JTG?!?, don't leave me haggin' bro??! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JTG51]

...I guess I'd be left with JTG?!?

And that would surely be a tragedy. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Joe Tall]

And that would surely be a tragedy.

Well, now that you I see some 10/20 posts, are you sure you'll have time to 'slum' here in the Small Stakes?

[JTG51]

are you sure you'll have time to 'slum' here in the Small Stakes?

That won't change anything. I've actually spent far more hours playing 10/20 than any other game over the last year and a half.

[ResidentParanoid]

I was joking. I thought you would be the one to get it, especially in this thread. I saw that you are in the top 5 posters the other day. Congrats. They're almost always worth reading.

[ResidentParanoid]

I suppose I should have used the winking gremlin /images/graemlins/wink.gif when I made the post above. I thought I was being as dry and ironic as Homer had been earlier. Oh well....

[Philuva]

Is the underground 4-8 at the PS in NYC?

If so, those games can have some wild swings. With gypsies throwing chips around like they are candy, its tough to read where you are in a hand. You might need to adapt your game to a very loose aggressive style.

FWIW, I made about 1BB/hr in the 4-8 game at the PS and over 2BB/hr in the 10-20 game at PS over about the same number of house played, over 200. You might want to consider moving up, I think the 10-20 is actually a little softer of a game.

[CrackerZack]

You still have the fun Desmond raising all the time regardless of hand? The was another one too but his name escapes me.

[MRBAA]

You got it boys and unfortunately the wild players are a lot fewer lately and there are some good and/or competent ones replacing them. Really spotlights the holes in my game!