Curtains: screw the 10 BB 'rule'

[45suited]

I love this, mainly because I do the same thing! /images/graemlins/grin.gif So many lower level guys get in trouble by standard raising hands like this:

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t1545)
CO (t2210)
Hero (t1635)
SB (t3405)
BB (t1205)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero t1635 (All-in)</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

[Snarf]

I see the value in it...

Question: Aren't you pushing more to protect your stack (by raising/missing getting bet/raised off the hand AFTER losing chips) than trying to buy blinds?

It seems like poor blind buying as far as risk/return goes...but I don't own SNGPT - so please correct if I'm wrong...

[J-Lo]

this should be +$EV, but there are other moves which are more +$EV

why no standard raise-- fold to reraise, or are people to agresive to resteal w/ 89s?

[45suited]

I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[Bluff Daddy]

well if sb is on tight and bb is on average its +.8, messing around with all the preset ranges its anywhere from +.7 to .9

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with both your points.

My main question was about the POINT of the raise.

Isn't the main POINT - as you said - to keep you out of trouble with the added benefit of buying a couple blinds...

If the main point is blind buying...then I don't get it...

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with both your points.

My main question was about the POINT of the raise.

Isn't the main POINT - as you said - to keep you out of trouble with the added benefit of buying a couple blinds...

If the main point is blind buying...then I don't get it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? What's wrong with killing a fly with a howitzer? I've got the best hand, if they don't want me buying their blinds, they're gonna have to risk all their chips.

[microbet]

This is one where my slider dances around a bit and then goes to push. BB's stack not being only 12 BBs and then your stack not being much more than that makes a standard raise tough.

[sofere]

The question is if pushing is more +EV than a raise as I think its obvious folding and limping are out of the question.

I think the Hero and SBs stacks are the biggest factor in the push. If Hero standard raises, SB being the big stack may be willing to put a few chips at risk to try call and push Hero off the hand post flop.

Maybe its just playing scared, but I hate playing this hand post flop against a big stack when I miss.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I push here as well. My reasons:

1) It keeps me out of trouble.

2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with both your points.

My main question was about the POINT of the raise.

Isn't the main POINT - as you said - to keep you out of trouble with the added benefit of buying a couple blinds...

If the main point is blind buying...then I don't get it...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? What's wrong with killing a fly with a howitzer? I've got the best hand, if they don't want me buying their blinds, they're gonna have to risk all their chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you're 10x as good as me...so I don't know what I can do other than agree and start playing it this way...

for my heads sake though - can't you just kill this fly with a fly-swatter and get out of the way to an AI re-raise?
....or is that a leak?

Also I was gonna ask if one of my problems with this is the structure difference between PP and PS. Since I play on PS and start with T1500 chips, I don't value the 50/100 level blind stealing as high as you PP players might?

If I factor that in - then I'm with ya 100%.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Well you're 10x as good as me...so I don't know what I can do other than agree and start playing it this way...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, you know you're responding to 45suited, not Curtains, right? I wouldn't claim to be 10x better than anyone. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
for my heads sake though - can't you just kill this fly with a fly-swatter and get out of the way to an AI re-raise?
....or is that a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

My take: how are you gonna fold to an AI re-raise from an unknown? What if the guy's got 88 and he views your standard raise as a button steal? No way would I fold to a re-raise, for that reason. I just push here, but if you want explanations from a smart guy, ask Curtains, not 45suited. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well you're 10x as good as me...so I don't know what I can do other than agree and start playing it this way...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, you know you're responding to 45suited, not Curtains, right? I wouldn't claim to be 10x better than anyone. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
for my heads sake though - can't you just kill this fly with a fly-swatter and get out of the way to an AI re-raise?
....or is that a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

My take: how are you gonna fold to an AI re-raise from an unknown? What if the guy's got 88 and he views your standard raise as a button steal? No way would I fold to a re-raise, for that reason. I just push here, but if you want explanations from a smart guy, ask Curtains, not 45suited. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think perhaps you are underestimting my suckiness, sir. ...but for your sake, we'll reduce it to 3x as good.

Coolio?

I don't play a crapload...so I can always hope I've just been running cold and that it just takes me more physical time to play through the these streaks 'cuz of my low volume.


Anyways... I wasn't saying I WOULD fold to an AI...just saying I like giving myself the CHANCE too....

Would you standard raise if the blinds were classicaly weak-tight?

Also - you're probably right about the reduced steal ranges against a button raiser... I need to think of that stuff more often in those spots...

Then again...if I push there more often, I wouldn't have those spots in the first place, so...yeah...

I've started pushing in situations like this as well for reasons that sofere describes. Situations like this when blinds are getting high and I standard raise and then the flop misses me always cause me problems. You may even luck out and get called by AJ (or any ace rag at the lower levels) or KQ. People really love to defend their blinds with ace rag. I see it so frequently.

Do you fold if you standard raise and they re-raise you all-in? If not you may as well push it right?

[curtains]

This is an automatic push to me, Id never remotely consider anything else. I found my results improved when I played more robotically in such situations, and stopped trying to be greedy and squeeze some EV out of situations. Also if you raise to 250-300, you cant fold to a reraise no matter what. AQo is way too powerful a holding on the button.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
I found my results improved when I played more robotically in such situations, and stopped trying to be greedy and squeeze some EV out of situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this thread just helped me find a huge leak.

Thanks guys.

[curtains]

Yeha I mean its already worth like about $15-$20 to just push in the $215s, do I really expect another play to be worth more $?

[Burno]

[ QUOTE ]

This is an automatic push to me, Id never remotely consider anything else. I found my results improved when I played more robotically in such situations, and stopped trying to be greedy and squeeze some EV out of situations. Also if you raise to 250-300, you cant fold to a reraise no matter what. AQo is way too powerful a holding on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. I make this sort of 10-15BB push a lot myself, to avoid sticky situations and simplify my play for bajillion-tabling. I assume you play AK the same?

Same spot, same stacks what are you doing with

AJ?
99-JJ?
QQ-AA?

[curtains]

I play the same always with AQo. My opponents depend on how I play other hands. If the blinds are people I play with a lot I will often push the best hands sometimes, so they will know that I do it. I may even show the hand as well. AJo I would push also, the hand is too powerful on the button. Makes life easy somehow.

There are some things I would raise to 250-300 with....such as TT+ and sometimes AK against some opponents or some other random hands that I would likely fold to a reraise.

[Paul Thomson]

When I'm in late position, I tend to play a hand slower because I want to use my positional advantage. I will push the exact same hand from the blinds because it's hard to play high non-pair hands (AK, AQ) out of position and they tend to gain value when they can goto the river.

Is this over-thinking the situation and should I play it more robotically?

2nd part question: When you say that your "results improved when I played more robotically in such situations"...what do you mean by "such situations". Is there one thing particularly about this situation that makes you push-it...your hand in particular or the stack sizes or the stack sizes in relation to the blinds?

Push. You're not folding to a re-raise after you make a standard raise so you might as well push.

[bawcerelli]

[ QUOTE ]


2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm in late position, I tend to play a hand slower because I want to use my positional advantage. I will push the exact same hand from the blinds because it's hard to play high non-pair hands (AK, AQ) out of position and they tend to gain value when they can goto the river.

Is this over-thinking the situation and should I play it more robotically?

2nd part question: When you say that your "results improved when I played more robotically in such situations"...what do you mean by "such situations". Is there one thing particularly about this situation that makes you push-it...your hand in particular or the stack sizes or the stack sizes in relation to the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically mean all situations once the blinds get to 50-100/75-150 and I have like 15x BB or less. This case is small exception but the thing is there is zero chance Im folding to a reraise, nor do I want to encourage someone with 44 to do so. It's a tradeoff...sometimes a smaller raise will encourage a pair to play with you that otherwise wouldn't have (which you dont want) and sometimes itll encourage a weaker ace (which you do want). Other downsides are that your opponent can flat call preflop, which is not something you want to happen.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

[/ QUOTE ]


The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[KingDan]

What are you doing with A8o with the button here?

If blinds know you will be pushing your better hands, do you have to muck it?

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?


[/ QUOTE ]
The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a mathematical justification for it.

There is a point where if you have nBB that it is mathematically incorrect to raise and then fold to a n allin reraise.

I don't remember what the actual number is and I think 10BB is a slight overestimation, and I think it depends on your holding, but 10BB is a good number for a rule of thumb.

Does anyone have an archive link?

The Karlson-Sklansky hand rankings, although not addressing this exact problem are a look in the right general direction.

[sofere]

The justification:

You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
The justification:

You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me the part of the justification that is lost is what happens when you get flat called and whiff on the flop, which is just as important. I push in spots like the OP all the time.

There's no point giving hope to someone who's got a mediocre hand by just raising. Plus, you do get called by hands that you crush, since many people can't see pushing hands that strong.

[sofere]

I completely agree

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk &gt;x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

[/ QUOTE ]


The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts with the actual hand would have been something along the lines of: if I get re-raised all-in, I can call; if someone flat calls, I'll be playing the hand with position. Which would have been OK with me.

More than a 10x or 15x rule, what I'm really looking for is the thinking behind the action. I'd like to understand rather than follow a rule.

So, what is the thinking that makes you decide to push rather than make a 2.5-3x BB raise? Is it as simple as: I have to call an all-in, so I might as well push? Or, is there something more behind it?

[Zeem]

So are you pushing bigger hands here as well? Is this part of a mixed strategy or are you to push any playable hand here?

[curtains]

If the BB calls, then playing a 500-600 chip pot with position when there is only 900-1000 chips left in play, can be very unpleasant on quite a few flops. Missing flops like these and having to decide how much or whether to c-bet can be one of the most irritating decisions and poker.

I prefer to just take my $15-$20 of value, and also some of these guys will call with plenty of hands that I crush.

[ QUOTE ]
If the BB calls, then playing a 500-600 chip pot with position when there is only 900-1000 chips left in play, can be very unpleasant on quite a few flops. Missing flops like these and having to decide how much or whether to c-bet can be one of the most irritating decisions and poker.

I prefer to just take my $15-$20 of value, and also some of these guys will call with plenty of hands that I crush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there a range of hands with which you make a standard raise? Or, is the situation such that it basically becomes push or fold?

[curtains]

Someone asked about A8o..Id probably raise to 250 with that hand, as I would with big hands like QQ as well.

[Degen]

hehe ya i noticed this too, he's always jamming over 10 BB's on steals or instead of standard raising...i've since adopted the strategy, thanks curtains /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone asked about A8o..Id probably raise to 250 with that hand, as I would with big hands like QQ as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise 250 w/A8o but push w/AQ? Aren't you faced with the same tough decision if one of the blinds calls and you miss the flop and have to decide whether to c-bet or not? And if one of the blinds pushes, you're going to call, aren't you? Then why not push? I don't understand the reason for playing the two hands differently.

[lacky]

what i dont like about it is it takes away the weak resteal. It's less likely they would call with A6, but will often push with it figuring you are stealing. I like to give them the opportunity to make that mistake.

If opponents know that he also raises with super-premium hands (QQ+), they will be less likely to push over the raise. In effect, the raise is either really good, or sort of good; the big hands protect the sort of good hands. Right?

[ravensfan]

I get the impression that he will fold to a push when he bets A8o. But his opponents, knowing he's a strong player and also being strong players themselves (and i'm comfortable assuming most players at 215s are!!), will be less likely to reraise AI on a "scary bet" like that. Also, betting his top hands this way should give them a chance to respect the 3x bb raise even more than they regularly would.

This is my impression, and it's also how i'll play these hands now since it doesn't make sense to stack myself to say A10+ when the bb pushes me and i have 15x bb

[ravensfan]

how do you respond to a Stop N GO if you miss the flop though? Would you be comfortable folding? If so, does the 1/3 times you call it make it worth it.
What about a 1/2 - fullsized bet on the flop if you miss it?

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
If opponents know that he also raises with super-premium hands (QQ+), they will be less likely to push over the raise. In effect, the raise is either really good, or sort of good; the big hands protect the sort of good hands. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right on. It goes along with "Shania." Say there are 6 hands he raises here with...A8-AT and AA-QQ. Players in the blinds won't be able to push back junk because of the threat of premium hands. If they do...you can easily muck A8 without much hesitation. However, they will also play back at you more when you have QQ-AA.

If they call, you still have an okay hand with position and can make a post flop decision.

[EasilyFound]

Now I understand. Thanks for educating me. Never thought about it like that. Makes perfect sense.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone asked about A8o..Id probably raise to 250 with that hand, as I would with big hands like QQ as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise 250 w/A8o but push w/AQ? Aren't you faced with the same tough decision if one of the blinds calls and you miss the flop and have to decide whether to c-bet or not? And if one of the blinds pushes, you're going to call, aren't you? Then why not push? I don't understand the reason for playing the two hands differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no intention of calling a reraise with A8o. btw moving allin preflop with A8o is quite reasonable as well. What I don't understand is why youd think that AQo and A8o have the same value preflop when you are reraised for 10x the BB!

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If opponents know that he also raises with super-premium hands (QQ+), they will be less likely to push over the raise. In effect, the raise is either really good, or sort of good; the big hands protect the sort of good hands. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right on. It goes along with "Shania." Say there are 6 hands he raises here with...A8-AT and AA-QQ. Players in the blinds won't be able to push back junk because of the threat of premium hands. If they do...you can easily muck A8 without much hesitation. However, they will also play back at you more when you have QQ-AA.

If they call, you still have an okay hand with position and can make a post flop decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Im raising with a bit more than that. And I open push with ATo probably, the hand just has too much value IMO to raise with the idea of folding when you have only 16x BB, and only 12.5x effectively when dealing with the BB.

I just avoid all the BS. It seems to work great for me. For the most part you want to avoid confrontations in sit and gos unless you have a premium hand and or you are dominating the opponent. This is due to the pay structure of the event. I wouldn't play this the same way if the pay structure was top heavy or if it was a MTT or whatever.

For all those times you are convincing someone to reraise you with some crap like A6 (Which they wont do so often), they will also reraise you with stuff like 44, 55, 66 which is a huge -EV blow if they were going to fold to an allin bet. They will also call preflop sometimes which is a situation I find unbelievably annoying. There are so many difficult flops to play. I am just going to take my huge EV by pushing and run. AQo doesn't seem strong enough for me to expect to earn over $15-$20 just by making a normal PF raise.

[curtains]

btw the above is just my feeling on the matter. Im sure that making a normal raise is totally fine, but it goes completely against my style in sit and gos.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
What I don't understand is why youd think that AQo and A8o have the same value preflop when you are reraised for 10x the BB!

[/ QUOTE ]

i forgot we were dealing w/situation where you had more than 10x bb. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't play this the same way if the pay structure was top heavy or if it was a MTT or whatever.


[/ QUOTE ]

btw, how would play be different if payout was top heavy: winner take all or 70/30?

[curtains]

I would probably make a normal raise with AQo if the pay structure was 70-30 ish, because now getting action is more favorable and there are fewer downsides.

[tewall]

That's what I normally do with stack size about this size. Raise about 20% of stack (which would be about 3 BB's) and follow with a bet of the same size if checked to and the flop is missed. This often picks up an extra 3xBB, even if the flop is missed (after all, it usually misses the other guy too). If everything goes wrong, with over 15xBB to start with, you wind up with close to 10xBB, instead of being gone.

[tewall]

Running this on SNGPT, assuming as average calling range, AQo is the worst recommended pushing hand (i.e., just barely good enough to push). If one assumes a loose calling range, that doesn't change. Only a "maniac" calling range lowers it down to AJo.

It seems to me the problem with pushing AQo is that you can make more by making a standard raise and following it up with a continuation bet. Even if this goes wrong, you still have about 10BB left. You have a good chance of picking up an extra 3BB by playing this way, plus a better chance of getting all-in against a worse hand (i.e. a weaker Ace is probably more likely to attempt a re-steal here than call).

[curtains]

tewall your settings for SNGPT are wrong by a longshot. Also please for the love of god turn off your minimum advantage requirements. Anything above .2% is golden, and anything between .1-.2 is quite good as well IMO. AJo is clearly a +EV push as well as well as some other weaker hands.

[ QUOTE ]
tewall your settings for SNGPT are wrong by a longshot. Also please for the love of god turn off your minimum advantage requirements. Anything above .2% is golden, and anything between .1-.2 is quite good as well IMO. AJo is clearly a +EV push as well as well as some other weaker hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're willing to push +.1% hands? What if it was a $55? What if it was 7-handed?

[curtains]

Im willing to, but it depends on the situation. When the blinds get high enough compared to your stack, you should often take the slightest edge you can get because there is no room to manuever. Anyway it really depends, I do fold plenty of +.1% edges but they usually involve me pushing with any 2, and Im dealt some crap hand thats embarrassing to push and will hurt my image if called. For instance, if I always take these .1% edges, many of my other edges will drop down in the future if people are paying attention.

Ok , but when there are still 6-7 players remaining, or the other players are all huge donks, you SHOULD use a minimum edge higher than .3% or something like that right?

Because in those situations people will often bust out without your help. That's the whole point of a minimum edge, as far as I know.

[tewall]

Thanks!

[curtains]

Not sure about that DonkBluffer....When the blinds are too high compared to your stack, usually that min edge goes out the window. I mean I have been doing extremely well in sit and gos by not forgoing many +EV plays, or at least not doing so intentionally.

[ravensfan]

Exactly, "playing poker"... ie position, reads, etc. I think i might "play" for too long into tourneys, but in this case it might be worth it. At least you're still well in the game, and reasonably comfortable when worst case hits.