multiple forks in the road

[daryn]

this hand was weird.. anyone 3 bet preflop? how about flop action.. checkraise or peel for cheap since you're out of position.. turn card? what now?!

assume no reads other than these guys aren't the greatest limit texas hold'em players you've seen around


PokerStars 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero ...?

[etizzle]

i like a flop c/r. Yeah we dont have huge equity against a million hands, but the fact that BB was the one that bet, and UTG didnt raise, makes me think 99 is surely in the lead. Its gonna be tough to protect your hand in this one but at least you got an oppurtunity to charge everyone another bet with the likely best hand.

On the turn I'd probably bet it out and fold to a raise from UTG or UTG+1, and call down a raise from BB.

PREFLOP: I would fold, I know your in the SB so you have a little discount but 99 does not play well OOP against the usual range of an UTG raiser. Another factor that should make you lean towards a fold is that you also have no information on your opponents, which increases the probability that you will make mistakes postflop. If there were 3 people committed to the pot outside the blinds, I would call here since Im getting the odds to flop a set, with just 2 people committed I would fold.

FLOP: Given your relative position to the raiser, checking and going for a checkraise or betting out are both fine plays IMO. Once you checked and the BB bets and everyone else calls, calling now looks right. Checkraising in this spot and building the pot would not be sound poker IMO since the equity of your holding is going to change dramatically with the turn card.

TURN: This is a bad card for obvious reasons. I would check and see what happens. If the BB bets, and everyone folds, I would call down since there is still a great chance you have the BB beat. If the BB bets and both other players call, its time to leave and fold the turn. IF the BB bets and UTG folds, and UTG+1 calls, this is a much tougher spot since you would assume the UTG+1 would raise if he hit the king, and the BB's hand is most likely tied to the flop, but folding still wouldnt be a bad play here, since you are probably in a way behind/barely ahead situation, meaning the times youre ahead you will still get rivered quite often and the times you are behind you are drawing to 2 outs.

This best advice I can give you on the turn is to check it, and see what develops and use your judgement to decide if you should continue in the hand.

[daryn]

i didn't read past the fourth word of your post.. oh, i will.. i just wanted to ask this first

are you serious? you'd fold?

ok, back to reading your post

------

ok i read it. my thoughts were the same as yours on the flop and turn.. on flop i knew the turn card could change things dramatically so i figured let me see it for 1 bet. on the turn part of me felt like i should check to see what happened

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't read past the fourth word of your post.. oh, i will.. i just wanted to ask this first

are you serious? you'd fold?

ok, back to reading your post

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, I figured you'd say that. They dont call me WeakTightWes for no reason, just telling you what I would do and why.

[calmasahinducow]

Bet that flop to see where you are in the hand. That turn card is bad news I think.

[mc1023]

I would not 3bet this hand preflop against a UTG raiser and an UTG+1 coldcaller, since there are a lot of flops that will slow you down.

also there is really no point CRíng this hand on the flop since it won't get a fold out of either of them.

call and re-evaluate on the turn, and in this particular case I would check the turn and fold to two bets but call if it's only one BB back to me.

[Net Warrior]

[ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP: I would fold, I know your in the SB so you have a little discount but 99 does not play well OOP against the usual range of an UTG raiser. Another factor that should make you lean towards a fold is that you also have no information on your opponents, which increases the probability that you will make mistakes postflop. If there were 3 people committed to the pot outside the blinds, I would call here since Im getting the odds to flop a set, with just 2 people committed I would fold.

FLOP: Given your relative position to the raiser, checking and going for a checkraise or betting out are both fine plays IMO. Once you checked and the BB bets and everyone else calls, calling now looks right. Checkraising in this spot and building the pot would not be sound poker IMO since the equity of your holding is going to change dramatically with the turn card.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the math dictates a fold pre-flop. I was just wondering if on the flop it wouldn't be a good idea to bet out. This sandwiches the BB between you the the pre-flop raiser. The idea is to try to get it HU where you're the favorite vs AKo etc.

[DcifrThs]

this is how i would play the hand. i could be wrong but here it is.

Preflop: call. every time.

flop: since we have no real read, id just assume UTG is your typical player who is more likely to have a hand like AK/AQ/AJs/KQs etc, than AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT, and that he's about as equally likely to raise or fold those first hands than call with them (so given his raise, its about even money that he has no pair than a pair that beats you). by betting and him having no pair that he raises, you clear the field to get it HU.

turn: given i bet the flop and he raised and others folded and its HU on the turn and the K hit, id check fold the turn.

Barron

[James282]

Surprised you'd call every time here Barron - I think a 3 bet is usually best. There are way too many hands the BB can have that really hurt your equity by letting him crawl in. Plus, by overrepresenting your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
Surprised you'd call every time here Barron - I think a 3 bet is usually best. There are way too many hands the BB can have that really hurt your equity by letting him crawl in. Plus, by overrepresenting your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is key. You should be able to extract enough information about UTG's hand by over-representing yours to make play easier on subsequent streets. Furthermore, dead money from the BB never hurts /images/graemlins/smile.gifI mix it up by calling and 3 betting here.

Onto the hand... I dont like our flop action. I think by donking it, you often get the BB to raise any pair or draw, which will either force UTG to drop his hand or define it so you can fold on the flop. I think this is best option. Since you checked and the action went bet/call, i would c/r for value. You are ahead the VAST majority of the time here, and you want to get value out of your hand. The problem with c/c is that when an A, K, or Q come on the turn you have no idea where you are at, and you also will have trouble extracting value from naked eights.

[DcifrThs]

i think you are definately correct if the UTG raiser is a bit looser than most. but without any read my default is usually call with 99 and down and raise TT on up in that spot, again, with no read.

hate having the bb here but you're against a UTG unknown raiser. loosen him up a touch and idefiantely 3 bet to clear out bb and make utg define his hand etc as you said.

Barron

[mc1023]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, by over representing your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessary true, your 3betting a UTG raiser and a coldcaller from the SB, that's a very small range in a 9 handed game unless you frequently 3bet marginal hands in this spot.

It may even pacify UTG and UTG+1 into call mode even if they hit an overpair to your 9 such as T-K.

Also with 99 out of position against a UTG raiser and UTG+1 coldcaller that's unknown, I don't mind BB slipping in with what is most likely a HUGE range that 99 could be a favorite over since he is getting 7:1 and closing the action. Not to mention for the times I will hit a set and BB may find a hand he likes.

6 handed or less, maybe even 7 handed where an unknowns raising standards will often be a bit looser, I like the 3bet preflop for information regardless of the callers and their respective positions.

But for a 10 handed game I think it's too strong of a line to take preflop by 3betting 99 here against two what seems like decent unknown opponents that will most likely hold 2-4 overcards to your pair preflop and have position on you.

[catlover]

The preflop fold question is interesting. This is one reason I think it is correct to raise, rather than call, with medium pocket pairs UTG in a high-stakes game.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, by over representing your hand, you usually force the UTG player to define his hand on the flop or the turn. If he does so by raising, you can almost always lay it down safely. If he caps, you can almost always find out whether you are ahead or behind on the flop.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is necessary true, your 3betting a UTG raiser and a coldcaller from the SB, that's a very small range in a 9 handed game unless you frequently 3bet marginal hands in this spot.

It may even pacify UTG and UTG+1 into call mode even if they hit an overpair to your 9 such as T-K.

Also with 99 out of position against a UTG raiser and UTG+1 coldcaller that's unknown, I don't mind BB slipping in with what is most likely a HUGE range that 99 could be a favorite over since he is getting 7:1 and closing the action. Not to mention for the times I will hit a set and BB may find a hand he likes.

6 handed or less, maybe even 7 handed where an unknowns raising standards will often be a bit looser, I like the 3bet preflop for information regardless of the callers and their respective positions.

But for a 10 handed game I think it's too strong of a line to take preflop by 3betting 99 here against two what seems like decent unknown opponents that will most likely hold 2-4 overcards to your pair preflop and have position on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

There was no SB cold caller, we are the SB.
-James

[daryn]

this was a weird hand..

so i checked the turn when the K /images/graemlins/club.gif hit.. it went check check after me, and the last guy to act bet.

now what?

well i felt he didn't have a king, i put him on either an 8 or a semibluff just trying to represent a king and pick up the pot, and i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"

it folded to the turn bettor who called. the river came low and i bet, figuring i would be called by worse hands (and maybe a few better ones) but probably wouldn't be raised. if i checked i would have to call and he would bet a king but not raise one.

i was called by 77, go figure!

[Nightwish]

Preflop is fine. Given that you have no info on the opponents, I agree with Barron that calling is better than 3-betting.

On this kind of flop, I would typically go for a check-raise. Essentially, it all depends on the PFR's position. Given that the PFR is third to act (out of four), I expect the action behind me to go check, bet, call, so then my check-raise would hopefully get BB to fold and extract value out of the other two. Had the PFR been last to act, the check-raise would be even more correct because most players would check to the PFR, so my check-raise would then clear out the field. Had the PFR been in the BB, betting the flop would have been the best course of action because you then want the PFR's raise to clear out the field.

As it stands, the BB made a surprising bet, everyone called, so now you must check-raise to extract value. After that, I would bet the turn.

[mc1023]

[ QUOTE ]
There was no SB cold caller, we are the SB.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant coldcaller from UTG+1.

[jogumon]

[ QUOTE ]
well i felt he didn't have a king, i put him on either an 8 or a semibluff just trying to represent a king and pick up the pot, and i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad play? Why? I'm really trying to figure out why a c/r is not the best of your three options?

If you're not going to fold (you're not, right), you have to c/r to fold the other two guys, who at this point are both looking like they're drawing, most likely to overcards. Given the action up until now, there's a pretty good chance you currently have the best hand.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]

i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I like that play. Maybe I need to reevaluate, here, because this doesn't look bad to me at all.

SpaceAce

[wheelz]

i was also hoping that he'd c/r after the last guy bet... i think it's easily better than calling/folding.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i didn't want anyone else calling one bet so i checkraised. right after i did it i thought "wow, that's a pretty bad play"


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I like that play. Maybe I need to reevaluate, here, because this doesn't look bad to me at all.

SpaceAce

[/ QUOTE ]

well, what i mean to say is i didn't like it.. but i don't see what else i could do. after i checked i think it was the clear play, but after i did it i thought only better hands would call, and i might actually lose worse hands.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
well, what i mean to say is i didn't like it.. but i don't see what else i could do. after i checked i think it was the clear play, but after i did it i thought only better hands would call, and i might actually lose worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Possibly, but what hands do you have in such bad shape that you're really sad if they fold? A King that made it this far is probably not going anywhere but I think you're glad to fold out almost anything else you can and take your hand up against the late position turn bettor since you think he's not holding much of a hand.

SpaceAce