So what the crap do I do now?

[ZBTHorton]

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

CO (t540)
MP3 (t910)
MP2 (t985)
MP1 (t1810)
UTG+1 (t730)
UTG (t1040)
Hero (t930)
SB (t2310)
Button (t745)

Preflop: Hero is in BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="red">UTG+1 raises t75</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, MP2 calls t75, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, CO calls t75, Button calls t75, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, Hero calls t45

Flop: (t390) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets t300</font>, UTG+1 calls t300, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, CO calls t300, Button calls t300

Turn: (t1590) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)


WHAT NOW??? Does anybody play this differently?

[Daliman]

I'd check, expecting fireworks from the UTG+1 and at least one other opponents who has the flush draw, then likely fold. UTG+1 should have you beat a significant amount of the time here, and calling allin should he push for ~600 more getting over 3-1 means little when you are often a 20-1 or so dog, not even counting for what other players may do.

[2DAXTRM (Jeff)]

First of all, I would not have bet 300 on the flop. I prefer checking and folding to a lot of action. If you really want to play for the pot just move all in although I tend not to do this.
On the turn I would probably check and fold. The best case situation at this point is that one person on a diamond draw, and the other has 99 or a smaller pair. This is not a very fun situation and that's why I never bet $300 with a medium sized pair with no overcards on the flop.

[jeffraider]

I recommend checking the flop, looking to end this hand with an all-in raise unless it all goes pear-shaped behind you.

[ZBTHorton]

I guess I don't see checking the flop as an option. If someone over-pushes(especially the initial raiser) I can easily lay this down.

[caretaker1]

Pre-Flop: Swell
Flop: Check-fold and live to fight another day. A slight overpair against an early raiser and three callers is not promising, particularly for 35% of your remaining stack; how often do you expect the bet to take the pot down right here?
Turn: Check-fold. Someone is likely beating you; can't imagine two flush draws and a 9 coming up too often here.

$.02

[Pasterbator]

Based on your last 2 posts, it seems like no one respects any of your bets. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Thats no fun.

Anyway. I dont hate the way you played this. But, if im leading this flop, i think im only putting 200-250 out there. On the turn, I think its check/fold. I'm really not sure what all these people could have that you're beating.

raise 90-120 preflop

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
raise 90-120 preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-Raise PF? That seems ludicrous..

[Nick M]

What buy in is this hahahah???

check fold the turn...hell I fold out of turn here, I wouldn't even bother clicking check.

That 300 is looking very juicy for a preflop push...hmmmm I'm looking at the stacks right now, is this a 55?

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
What buy in is this hahahah???

check fold the turn...hell I fold out of turn here, I wouldn't even bother clicking check.

That 300 is looking very juicy for a preflop push...hmmmm I'm looking at the stacks right now, is this a 55?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a 55. I think pushing PF or on the flop is absolutely horrible because you are only called by better hands.

[Pasterbator]

I think with 800 chip stacks a push is a good play. Here, although I don't hate it, I would need a read that on the PF raiser to do so.

[yvesaint]

from my initial reaction to the hand, i like a flop check. you are OOP, and id really like to see how the action develops before i start putting in my chips in such a large multi-way pot.

def dont play differently pf, i probably flat call with JJ pf too.

but say the action goes after you check flop, UTG+1 bets 300, call, call, i see an easy fold for you. say actioni goes UTG+1 bets, fold, fold, im torn between calling/push turn, and folding. probably the first. if its checked to CO/BB and they bet, well, im still not sure

gotta think some more

[boogiemang]

i like pf call and i think check fold the turn. 3 other callers doesnt seem right to me

[lastchance]

Call PF, check to the preflop raiser, raise all-in/fold depending on action when it gets back to you.

If turn hits, check when overcard/flush hits board, lead for t200 otherwise

[ZBTHorton]

I'm going to bump this, because I want more responses and totally disagree with almost every post so far.

I'll revisit this tonight hopefully.

[Elektrik]

That is a tough spot. The call preflop is standard, and reraising an UTG raiser just isn't smart.

The flop's a tricky situation - your hand is fairly strong and vulnerable, inclining you to bet, but at the same time there is a possibility of you being a huge dog, most likely to UTG+1. I think both betting and checking here are reasonable - betting can usually help you find out where you are as UTG+1 usually raises with an overpair (although I'll often bet less, maybe 250), and checking can allow you to escape cheaply if there's ton of action behind you.

Problem is, this is a $55, and there are players who will treat 9x and any lower PP here like the nuts and be willing to go all of the way with them, meaning you are losing a good deal of equity by checking.

Another consideration to check raising is that you may not get any action - UTG could have whiffed AK or whatever, any may not want to cont bet with 3 other players in the hand, while button and CO can have whatever, and half the deck kills your hand (JQKA or diamond).

So to sum up my random rambling, my plan on the flop would be this:
Bet 250 on the flop, fold to an UTG raise, call a CO and button raise and pray they have 9x.

My instincts tell me to bet the turn (b/c UTG usually raises with an overpair, pot is massive w/ CO and button so they should push with a 4), but my brain tells me to check and be ready to fold to some action. If it's checked around, I proceed to kick myself for not betting and hope for a good river; if UTG bets I probably fold, if CO or button bets I probably push hoping for 9x again. If there's a bet and a call I'm probably out of the hand regardless.

Hope that helps, but I wouldn't sweat it - situations like this aren't very common.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Call PF, check to the preflop raiser, raise all-in/fold depending on action when it gets back to you.

If turn hits, check when overcard/flush hits board, lead for t200 otherwise

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna have to agree with this. ZB, why isn't checking the flop an option for you? Aside from hitting your set, this is a great flop for you. But your hand is still very vulnerable to overcards and the flush. Check/raising all-in seems to be the strongest way to both get chips in the pot and protect your hand.

[DCJ311]

[ QUOTE ]
So what the crap do I do now?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the most fundamental errors in pot limit/no limit games is making big 'strength revealing' bets on the flop into multiple players without knowing a lot of information. Invariably, you will pot commit yourself on the flop and throw away a lot of money when you don't have the best of it and rarely get paid when you do.

Common example would be like in 1/2 PL Omaha where you are in the BB with $200 and AA83 rainbow, UTG minimum raises, 3 people call behind and the SB folds, and you call. Flop comes Ah 9s 8s, and you bet the pot, and all 4 players call. Now the pot is about $100 and you have only invested around $20. There are numerous turn cards that can come here that will give someone else a nut hand. In order for you to bet that turn, you'd have to be risking about half your stack. The problem is you won't usually get paid off if the board pairs, but if the scare card hits you're in danger of losing to that made draw or getting bluffed off your obvious set.

To avoid that problem, most PLO players would try to check raise that type of flop, hoping to get in a big check raise and isolate any competitors. If it is checked around, and the scare card hits on the turn, you can feel comfortable folding your set because you haven't invested much.

Generally if you go from making a t75 chip investment to a t1000 investment so quickly in a hand, you generally want to have a much better hand than TT on this type of flop if you are the one doing the betting the whole way. You're either drawing to 2 outs or facing a very big draw most of the time here, and you have only invested a small amount of your stack.

In your situation, I think you have two options given the way the hand was played:

1) Check fold the flop if the betting is scary.

If UTG+1 bets out t250 on the flop, and another player calls him, odds are definitely against you winning this pot, whether or not you have the best hand presently.

The range of hands you figure to be up against if a lot of money goes into the pot on this flop would probably give your hand either a 9-12% (facing 99, 4x, or bigger pair), 50-60% (facing AKd or A3d etc), or 80% (assuming youre up against A9, K9, etc) chance of winning. Normally your hand will be in the 12% range way too often to justify the times where some goon will have A9 or a flush draw, therefore folding is optimal.

2) Check raise allin on the flop based on action.

If UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets 250, button calls, then I might be more inclined to all in. You do have SOME fold equity here, and your chances of being up against the A9, flush draw types of hands improve if the action goes like this. Most importantly, the pot is now very big and you have a lot more incentive to take it down with no showdown.

In a multiway pot, often you will gain more information by checking in these spots, and seeing what happens when the action gets back to you.

Based on seeing which players bet and which check, you have a better chance of estimating who has a strong/weak hand and who might be on a draw. You also have the chance of getting someone to bluff at the pot with a hand like 88, etc, thus giving you more incentive to check raise.

By check raising, you put yourself in a position to risk either 0 chips or all of your chips based on the information you receive based on the flop action, which is what you want with a hand that needs protection, but still might be the worst hand. There MUST be a reasonable number of chips in the middle to semibluff at when you do make your check raise, otherwise you should just check fold with a minimal investment. Raising with TT here is obviously way stronger than making this same play with 77 on a 622 flop of similar suits, but it's still very dangerous and you need chips in the pot to justify it.

With that out of the way, I must say that I really hate the bet on the flop. You're arguably pot committed at this point, and you don't gain any 'true' information from the bet. For example, let's say your opponents have these hands:

UTG+1 AKo
MP2 66
MP3 QJd
CO AJo
BTN 33

By betting, the only hand that will give you action here (usually) is QJd. If this player goes allin on the flop or calls and sees a turn, you are going to be in an awkward position of having to make a tough(ish) flop call or turn commitment. Basically you are giving your opponent/s huge implied odds if they feel you will follow through on the turn.

By checking, you may induce the 88 to bet, and the QJd may call, and then you can allin fairly comfortably, giving them decisions to make. The point is, your opponents are generally likely to play their hands straightforwardly on this flop regardless of whether or not you bet. So you may as well give them a chance to put in that first bet and make them face a tough decision.

The fact that your thread is entitled So what the crap do I do now? already shows that you innately believe you played the hand poorly, since you backed yourself into a corner and gained absolutely no information with your flop bet, which is why you were not able to play the hand confidently and felt compelled to ask for advice on 2+2. The way you played the hand makes it tough for even the best players to give you concrete suggestions on what to do. On the turn it's definitely more likely you do not have the best hand, but you invested way too much money to find out that info.

The fact that you had 3 callers is a bit unnerving. I think checking and folding the turn to a lot of action is fine if 2 or more players put money in the pot in front of you.

But keep in mind how sick it is that a total blank comes off on the turn here and the best play probably is to fold. Imagine if that turn were an Ad or something like that; there were plenty of cards that could have come out on the turn that would have devalued your hand significantly, which is why you cannot back yourself into a tough situation on the flop.

[curtains]

I check this flop 100% of the time and then decide what to do based on my opponents action.

[DCJ311]

[ QUOTE ]

I check this flop 100% of the time and then decide what to do based on my opponents action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's obvious you know the correct way to play the hand after you read my post, cheater.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I check this flop 100% of the time and then decide what to do based on my opponents action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's obvious you know the correct way to play the hand after you read my post, cheater.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just saw your post now...I just responded to top one. I never saw you write so much what the hell got into you?