Curtains: folding JJ after a call+raise

[45suited]

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com (http://www.pregopoker.com/hhconv/convert)

UTG (t1080)
UTG+1 (t1180)
MP1 (t985)
MP2 (t1135)
CO (t1030)
Button (t1475)
Hero (t2120)
BB (t995)



Preflop: Hero is in SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t50, <font color="red">MP1 raises t200</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">Hero folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

folding JJ surprises me, especially w/ his stack... is JJ that weak here?

[microbet]

That's an easy fold against a lot of players. I bet Curtains is familiar with this player. It doesn't take long to know someone is basically TAG early and this raise indicates you are very unlikely to be far ahead.

exactly. if there's a solid read on villian as a tight player or somebody who's only raising with serious good, find a better spot. that's the beauty of playing with the same folks sometimes.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
That's an easy fold against a lot of players. I bet Curtains is familiar with this player. It doesn't take long to know someone is basically TAG early and this raise indicates you are very unlikely to be far ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much figured that he was familiar with the raiser, but it is an interesting hand nonetheless. Especially since it's only 175 to call. Obviously, it's a call if the raiser has more chips in his stack.

[Irieguy]

I fold JJ here, too. But it has nothing to do with what type of player the raiser may be and everything to do with the chip stacks involved.

It's funny how one respondant said he thinks hero should call because of his stack, whereas his stack is precisely why I think he should fold.

Irieguy

[caretaker1]

Unless MP1 were unusually loose, fold.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold JJ here, too. But it has nothing to do with what type of player the raiser may be and everything to do with the chip stacks involved.

It's funny how one respondant said he thinks hero should call because of his stack, whereas his stack is precisely why I think he should fold.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to expand for us noobs?

(I can think of some reasons...but interested to hear your POV)

[microbet]

If you're a big favorite over villian's range, I can't see folding.

I think the one respondant was talking about hero's stack. Are you primarily talking about hero's or villian's?

[ QUOTE ]
If you're a big favorite over villian's range, I can't see folding.

I think the one respondant was talking about hero's stack. Are you primarily talking about hero's or villian's?

[/ QUOTE ]
But you can't figure to be a HUGE favorite here. You are probably a small favorite at best, and are hoping to see overcards or an underpair. Risking half of your stack here for what may be a small +EV can't be better than the EV gained from having a ton of FE when you need it most in a couple rounds. I think what Irieguy was hinting at was that this would be a much different hand to play if you had, say, 700-800 chips, and the FE you stand to gain by winning on your small edge was a lot more significant, making a small edge more reasonable to take.

[microbet]

I'm generally down with folding, but there are maniacs; even in the $215s.

Fold. You'll need the FE in 2 rounds time. The calls is +ev but only marginally IMO.

[AbelM]

No way i'd fold this. I think you guys are overestimating the players at the 215's.

[ QUOTE ]
No way i'd fold this. I think you guys are overestimating the players at the 215's.

[/ QUOTE ]
Their skill level has nothing to do with this. Put them on a range of 99+, AQ+, KQ+ and it's still a clear fold, for the reasons stated above. What are you suggesting?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
No way i'd fold this. I think you guys are overestimating the players at the 215's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the stack size, I like taking a flop here.

[citanul]

i wanted to stop in and say both:

merry christmas to everyone out there (soon to be a happy channukah as well)

and

basically everything in this thread so far is both nonsensical and stupid

have a good one.

c

[Degen]

i must be a fish cuz i'm jamming this &gt; 90% of the time

merry christmas to you too

and

don't be a chonch

[citanul]

what's a chonch?

[ QUOTE ]
what's a chonch?

[/ QUOTE ]
Somebody who interjects comments without explaining them /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's a chonch?

[/ QUOTE ]
Somebody who interjects comments without explaining them /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, i guess i'm sometimes one of those thing.

<font color="white">i believe my original comment about the quality of this thread is pretty self explanitory, however, for a touch of explination, continue. note that this thread has people saying you should call, saying you should fold, and saying you should push. all that's missing is some moron who wants a miniraise. this is, in part, what inspires a great strategy and theory thread: a hand where even strong players have wide varieties of opinion. however, everyone in this thread, i believe without looking back for confirmation at this point, besides you, has been guilty of being a chonch. those who say to call, raise or fold just say to do that, with the deepest explains being "you're overestimating your competition," "because of your stack." that's pretty terrible if what people are interested in is why. if you want to say "becuase of your stack" you sort of have to say what it is about your stack that inspires you to say this. etc. i'm going to hold off giving any of my own analysis of this spot beyond "there are certainly players at the 200s, and likely at other stakes, against whom this fold is mandatory because you're just straight crushed." that is not to say that this fold is in general, off the bat a mandatory fold for that reason against the average player at any stake, just what i said originally. folding might be right in nearly all cases, but i'll save that for if/when i come back to do more responding in this thread. </font>

c<font color="white">honch</font>

[The Yugoslavian]

citanul,

I minraise.

How do you like those apples?!

Yugoslav

[Elektrik]

If the intial raiser was citanul, I push secure in the knowledge that he'd fold AA knowing I would outplay him postflop.

[curtains]

There are obviously players in the 215s where doing anything but folding here is just very bad. By this I mean there is absolutely zero chance they are raising with something like AJs, or even 99 or AQo.

I don't recall knowing the player during this hand, but this type of raise from EP after a limper really bothers me. In general you should give more respect to raises after a limper, also the guy is in early position, also they have made a standard raise which committs a large % of their stack. I find that in general, getting involved in situations like this is not +EV. Anyway JJ is my cutoff, Im moving allin with QQ against almost anyone. I might fold to one of these guys who always moves allin with AK-JJ but makes normal raises with the big hands and play super tight and fold everything else. There are a few guys who do this predominantly. For instance if ComeOnPhish was the raiser, there is close to a 0% chance they have AK. Meanwhile ComeonPhish would almost never raise like this with something like 88-99 I believe. There are other regulars for whom this is true.

[curtains]

In summary, Ive very happy with my decision to fold hands like this against certain normal seeming opponents. Im going to need some serious convincing/math to prove me wrong.

[45suited]

When I first saw the hand, I thought that the fold was interesting. I'm not claiming that I would have made the same play, but for the reasons you gave, I had a notion why you did it.

(It probably also helps that my style of play is similar to that which you describe. With that guy's stack size, the only hands (after a limper) that I'm raising less than all-in are AA, KK, QQ.)

Curtains, if the raiser had the same amount of chips as you, you would have called and seen a flop, correct? At least that was my thoughts on this...

[curtains]

Hey 45!! post some more hands Im bored!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If the guy had 2200 chips yeah Id gamble for sure, but Id be very careful if I flopped an overpair. Meaning I would not allow myself to go broke against AA-QQ and play in a manner to make sure of this without risking too many chips.