"The Dreaded Ace"?

[12AX7]

What's your standard line for this common situation?

You have PPs less than AA... an A hits the board...

Seems to me down in the micro and lower low limits folks play any A just about all the time.

Am I better off just folding rather than trying to read players that seem largely unreadable anyway?

Anyhow, just curious how other folks think on this situation.

It's so common that I think one really needs to have it figured out solidly.

[James282]

The problem isn't so simple. You aren't taking enough into the equation here - do you have KK vs. 2 players and the flop is A22? 44 vs. 6 players and the flop is A23? It seems to me that you don't know the questions you should be asking yet, which is natural if you are just starting out - but don't expect people to be able to be able to give you answers to questions like "what do you do when you have a pocket pair and an ace flops." You are looking for simplistic blanket answers to very complex problems - this is never a good place to start when approaching a poker situation.
-James

There are too many factors involved to analyze your example without specifics. Pre-flop action, position, the type of opponent(s), texture of the flop are all key considerations that will affect how you play your PP vs, an ace on the board. I can tell you that auto-folding is -EV. You should find a hand where you had a PP vs. A on the flop and post it in the micro forum.

[12AX7]

Admitted, the question was lacking the detail folks around here generally want to see.

To be honest, I'd like to hear everything everyone has to say about it, so I can learn what to zero in on, in a manner that is efficient enough for multi-table play.

For example you point out number-of-opponents. Ok that's one parameter to consider. I'd think it's safe to say, more opponents staying to see the flop means greater chance one of them is holding the other ace.

In any event, I suspect there has to be a comprehensive line of analystical thought on it. Some set of principles applied at playing time.

And as you point up, there's going to be lots of situational "ifs".

And no doubt, pot size vrs. my redraw outs is a consideration too, for example.

[timprov]

I'm a huge proponent of sytematizing just about everything I come across, but I haven't come up with a decent method for this situation. I manage to do pretty well in it anyway, so it hasn't been a huge concern.

One good general rule is to get out of protected pots. You're in a much better situation if it's just a bet to you than a bet and two calls.

[12AX7]

Hi Tapirboy,
Yes, I think I follow. This is the situation DS talks about in places where "Opponent A bets, B calls, and you should get out if you can't beat B, because B made the obvious read and thinks he has it beat already"

Wow, that was wordy. But I think what are essentially saying is, "if the action is heavy, get out".

But here's the thing. Maybe this is the LAG phenomenon some speak of. There are times when it's just been two folks in a pissing/raising contest and niether had anything! LOL!

Anyone else hate when they lay down a winner. LOL!

Anyway, I realize it's all about imperfect info, so chances are we'll never get to a 100% solution.

Just flop quads. The best method is to point at the screen and yell "X!" with x= your pocket pair.

[gezuz]

Clearly it depends on the stakes and whether it is NL or L, but I always lead out with my pp if I preflop raised. If I just limped for a set I fold. If it's called I bet again on the turn and check/fold the river UI.

[12AX7]

LOL!, I've had it work once in a while. LOL! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Last time it was "Show me a freakin' JACK PLEASE!" for a boat. LOL!

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

You simply cannot fold your PP every time an A shows up. That would be bad poker. Like others have said, this is very situational dependent. But here's a general rule to go by. Put out a probe bet. Chances are, if your opponent doesn't have an A, it will scare him and he will fold. If he calls or reraises, then you know to proceed cautiously.

[Guthrie]

[ QUOTE ]
You simply cannot fold your PP every time an A shows up. That would be bad poker. Like others have said, this is very situational dependent. But here's a general rule to go by. Put out a probe bet. Chances are, if your opponent doesn't have an A, it will scare him and he will fold. If he calls or reraises, then you know to proceed cautiously.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've found probe bets to be useless at the micro limits. All donks play all aces all the time, so if you have four opponents on the flop, at least one of them has an ace. If you put out a probe bet, the donks with a weak ace won't raise, they'll call, and call, and call. Every time.

Some of the ones who don't have an ace are likely to call as well, since they have no fear of the ace, and fully expect to make their gutshot on the river.

[12AX7]

Hi Guthrie, Mikever,
Ah, the two of you have nicely encapsulated my experience.

Against "thinking" opponents I'd be thinking along Mikever's line. And have tried that.

But I seem to run into what Guthrie describes. Hence my frustration with it at the micros. I'd swear thier strategy is "Any ace, any time". I've started to wonder if I should run a sim on that strategy! LOL! (At one time I did run no fold'em sims with an opponent profile of "Any Ace, Any King, and any Pocket Pair" to give me an idea what hands won more than thier fair share in short handed games. Ran the sim for every hand, from heads up to 6 players. Was planning on proping at the time and so was focused on the short handed problem.)

Seems it's random. Sometime you raise, and they even raise you back... and they had like... second pair or something! You think, "What was he thinking? Why was he coming at me?" Other times you'll be thinking "Ah sh't he's got the freakin AKs." and you're 100% correct.

So I've been trying to resolve the issue with some sort of strategy that's concise enough and +EV for multi-tabling, wherein you often don't have good reads. And for the moment I'm not using Poker Tracker + HUD.

So anyway, it seems to be a murky, touchy-feely sort of situation. Guess I should get Poker Tracker and try to see if what I'm doing is working or not.

Guthrie makes a good point. If you have four in the hand when an A comes out, chances are good somebody has it. I might think about checking here if I am in first position and see what action develops. But knowing me, I wouldn't. I would just rather put out a probe bet to get the information I need rather than having to call a small bet not knowing what I'm up against.

I may be going about this all wrong, but if I have JJ, let's say, and A-10-6 rainbow comes out, and I am first to act with three others in the hand, I will put out a bet of maybe half the pot. If I am called, then I will check on the next street and call a very small bet in relation to the pot, and fold anything else.

If I had just checked on the flop, and somebody who is last to act makes a small raise, I'm gonna have to call not knowing if it was a pot stealer or an Ace, and I don't want to be in that situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Tapirboy,
Yes, I think I follow. This is the situation DS talks about in places where "Opponent A bets, B calls, and you should get out if you can't beat B, because B made the obvious read and thinks he has it beat already"

Wow, that was wordy. But I think what are essentially saying is, "if the action is heavy, get out".

But here's the thing. Maybe this is the LAG phenomenon some speak of. There are times when it's just been two folks in a pissing/raising contest and niether had anything! LOL!

Anyone else hate when they lay down a winner. LOL!

Anyway, I realize it's all about imperfect info, so chances are we'll never get to a 100% solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

One loose-aggressive at a table isn't that hard to play against. Multiple loose-aggressives who just don't give a f whether or not they lose or win a bundle is suitcase-packing brush time or comatose-level tightness time. With the abundance of table opportunities online and Pokertracker, you shouldn't have a problem avoiding those tables, with time.

Good advice. I used to play PPs much looser than I do now, but I lose a lot less.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
If you put out a probe bet, the donks with a weak ace won't raise, they'll call, and call, and call. Every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think this is good play or bad play?

I can't believe it, but I was going to post exactly what mikever did. Maybe I'm learing things on this site too.

For the sake of the argument, let's run through this scenario. You have KK UTG you raise, and the table fold to the BB with A anything, who calls. Flop comes A72 rainbow. In this situation, I'd slow down and let the BB control the board. You have second pair. Get over yur emotional attachment to KK, because no mater how you feel, there is a card on the board that if paired, can beat you. This is the same hand as if you had 99 and the flop comes 1062 rainbow. Do you get upset then?

[deviouz]

imagine this, (tight game)you have been dealt KK in UTG, you raise pre-flop, only 2-3 players call, the flop comes Axx, if SB is in and bet this flop before you, you should FOLD, if he check along with the others, BET and se what happends, if everybody folds to you ,fine you just won the pot, if somone calls that bet, check the turn and if bet into, FOLD, in a loose passive game, be prepeared that anyone could hold the ace without betting in this spot

[FishNChips]

I curse at the poker gods for not respecting my pocket pair. After that is over, I assess:

1 - how many opponents?
2 - what do I know about these opponents?
3 - what is the action before me?
4 - assuming I'm behind to an Ax villain, do I have any other draw besides the 2 outer for my 3Kings?
5 - how big is the pot (if I'm behind do I have odds to peel for my 2 outer?)


I think that covers it... then I proceed accordingly.

for a more consice answer:
*full table <5/10 and 3 or more callers I'm probably going to get have to muck my KK here.
*Short handed 3/6 or 5/10 and 2 or 3 callers I'm going to open bet and hope to take it down there. If met with resistance I'm probably mucking unless I know something VERY specific about the villain that makes me believe mucking is wrong.

Best Wishes,
FishNChips