On Holidays, Family, and Church

[RainDog]

Brief backround: I'm a 23 year old Agnostic (or close enough for the sake of this post) visiting family in California for the holidays. My family history is Catholic, but my mother has gone the route of generic Christianity (as has much of her side of the family). My step-father has recently joined the Christian crew around the age of 55 after his father passed away (who also "found God" late in life). They attend church weekly. I myself have not attended a proper church gathering other than for funeral reasons since I was around 10 years old.

Now for the questions; these are directed towards atheists and non-atheists alike but please state where you are coming from in your responses.

My mother and aunt gave some polite pleading for me to go along to church on Christmas eve. You know, the "it would mean a lot to me" kind of arguments. My step-father on the other hand asked in a subtle yet optimistic fashion, "You're going with us?". When I affirmed the negative he gave a polite but not completely guilt free, "Oh, not your thing huh?".

So I decided not to go along. Now I don't mind attending church for the purpose of quality time with the family in order to make my mother a little happier. But if the reason that it's important for her has anything to do with hopes of me becoming a good Christian, then I feel it would be misleading for me to do so. I also can't help but feel a little dishonest sitting in a church gathering. This doesn't mean I have never gone to a church in the past 15 years or so. I've visited plenty traveling around the world and have found an appreciation for the various faiths others hold. I also admire the beauty and aesthetic value of churches and their architecture (something I'm disappointed that the Protestant crowd has abandoned). Places of religion, even though I don't necessarily follow a particular faith, provide me with a tranquil atmosphere for thought and reflection.

I do have other non-religious family members that have abstained from these family religious outings.

To Atheists and the like: Should I feel guilty for not appeasing my parents and just going along? Would it be a contradiction to my values (or your values, since I can't really place you in my shoes)? Would it be fair to genuine believers to "play" religious when I really think it's all a farce?

To the religious crowd: If it were a son or daughter of yours, how would you feel about them not coming along? If it would bother you, please state your reasoning. Is it because you have hopes of conversion, or would you just like them to be there with you during the special case of the Holidays?

Thanks and Happy Holidays to you all

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To the religious crowd: If it were a son or daughter of yours, how would you feel about them not coming along?

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I suppose I would feel as though I failed as a parent.

My reason for that lies in the fact that (I believe) most fathers want a child who emulates their values, morals, ethics, traditions, and dreams. To a large extent, this happens, both naturally (as the saying goes, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree") and not (the raising of a child, beginning with the teaching of right and wrong).

The life and teachings of Jesus Christ, though not always in practice 100% (nor should that be expected) fall under the "my values" category, which, if not successfully transmitted through the gene pool would, as I said, leave me with a feeling of failure.

[bocablkr]

Staying true to yourself is what really matters. Your family should understand that. You can go out of your way to spend 'family time' with them later. Keep up the non-faith.

[New001]

See, I don't understand this at all, and I bet it's a big reason of why I am not religious at all. Whenever I end up raising a child, I would be happy if he (or she) decided for himself what he should believe. It would exhibit to me a higher level of thinking than just "My daddy did this so I will too."

To the OP, I think it's fine that you aren't going along. I probably wouldn't either, because it would make me incredibly uncomfortable, and I think it's selfish for them to pressure you to come along with them. Maybe offer to spend some time with them elsewhere? A nice dinner, or a movie, or something? That way, you're still spending time with your family, but it's not in a religious setting.

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It would exhibit to me a higher level of thinking than just "My daddy did this so I will too."


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To what is extent is a son wishing to emulate his father a lesser level of thinking?

[New001]

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It would exhibit to me a higher level of thinking than just "My daddy did this so I will too."


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To what is extent is a son wishing to emulate his father a lesser level of thinking?

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You don't think that coming to your own conclusion about the world isn't a little more advanced than doing what your father does because your father does it?

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Whenever I end up raising a child, I would be happy if he (or she) decided for himself what he should believe.

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I beg to differ. You would be very upset if your son came to believe that murder, rape, and theft were A-OK.

From the get-go, a value/belief system will be imparted by you, whether you like it or not, and since I suspect that you believe murder, rape, and theft to be wrong, you will be quite pleased when your son comes to the same conclusions as an independent thinking man (if you succeeded as a father, that is).

Hence, this has nothing to do with why you are not religious.

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You don't think that coming to your own conclusion about the world isn't a little more advanced than doing what your father does because your father does it?

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Becoming one's own man is a process that does not automatically imply the abandonment of fatherly emulation. If a son who admires his Dad so much that he wishes to emulate his father to whatever extent (a desire amongst many fathers I'm sure), this does not automatically imply that the son has stagnated intellectually.

[New001]

Clearly my statement was about religion, not whether he becomes a criminal. Disdain for "murder, rape, and theft" is shared by more than just religion.

You're right in that a parent's values will be passed on to his children, and that's a good thing. Children often lack the ability to make "correct" decisions, though I'm sure there's a better way to say that. Then, as they age, they can decide for themselves.

I would hope that my son comes to his own conclusions, whether or not I agree with them. I'm not going to gauge my success as a father on whether or not he comes to the same conclusions as me, but (and not solely) whether he came to logical conclusions.

[New001]

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You don't think that coming to your own conclusion about the world isn't a little more advanced than doing what your father does because your father does it?

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Becoming one's own man is a process that does not automatically imply the abandonment of fatherly emulation. If a son who admires his Dad so much that he wishes to emulate his father to whatever extent (a desire amongst many fathers I'm sure), this does not automatically imply that the son has stagnated intellectually.

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If I wanted to become a musician (my father's occupation as I grew up), then I can. If I wanted to be Buddhist (his religion), I can. Either of those decisions are going to be made based on what I think is best for me and my life, or my family, or my future, not because it's what my father did.

And what if I do decide to emulate my father? Good for me. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that I would hope any son I raise will look at other options and decide for himself what's best.

I am a strong atheist.

I have no problem going for the spectacle, if it would make someone happy beyond belief. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Having said that, I would tell whoever invited me that I am happy to sit, happy to stand, not willing to go on my kness and do the gestures of prayer usually demanded. I'll sit when they kneel, I will not join my hand in prayer, I will not kneel and I will not bow my head. It seems like a fair compromise to me, and not compromising my stand against religion. The last time I went to a catholic church, I did just that. It was at a funeral.

Have a jolly good one. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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I'm just saying that I would hope any son I raise will look at other options and decide for himself what's best.

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And my question was, that upon your son's assessment of his options in life, and one option (yours) being favored, perhaps heavily, per his admiration of you, to what extent does this demonstrate a lesser level of thinking?

And I don't think it is debatable that a father's desire for a son's emulation on at least several levels does in fact exist (even if you don't feel as though that is in your future) hence the feeling of failure I suppose I would feel upon my son's rejection of my beliefs.

http://www.big.or.jp/~gomex/ms/fod.jpg

[New001]

Do you not see a difference between "Following the same religion as your father because he's your father" and "Choosing the same religion as your father because it makes more sense to you than your other options?" The latter I support entirely, the former seems lazy.

My original statement was intended to be 100% about religion, even if it does apply in other situations.

You seem to believe that choosing your own religion is a set point in one's life, as though it happens when you turn 18. It happens only upon a rejection of your father/mother's religion first (assuming there was one). This generally elicits disappoinment on the parent's end.

The process of rejection was just that - a thought process. But this does not imply a superior level of thinking to the individual whose thoughts were dedicated elsewhere (perhaps within the religion itself) and not to the assessment and subsequent rejection of the ideals of the parents which he admires so much. This applies entirely to ideals and principles, as there is no intellectual gain (or loss) from rejecting buddhism and taking up judaism.

This false sense of superior thinking is what I believe leads many to gleefully declare their atheism, as if the rejection of their primitive parents' religion were some sort of victory (suggesting an advanced sort of authority complex). You can witness this snug superiority repeatedly, again and again, right here on this forum.

[imported_luckyme]

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And my question was, that upon your son's assessment of his options in life, and one option (yours) being favored, perhaps heavily, per his admiration of you, to what extent does this demonstrate a lesser level of thinking?

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I'd be mightily disappointed as a father if a grown child of mine allowed any decision to be weighed with "his admiration of me". I want to raise independant thinking adults, not father worshippers/pleasers. I hope I have set an example of being honest, trustworthy, reasonable, fair, etc ( not without slippage ) and those attributes are attributes they have, and when choices arise I hope those attributes lead to good ones. Tossing in "admiration for dad" should have moved way,way out of the picture by the time he's an adult or I will have failed.

On the OP's initial question - being upfront is the main issue. I conducted an atheist funeral a couple years ago for a mostly religious audience, including the childs pastor. The pastor was one of the first, of many, to come up and comment on how well it went. In the situation the OP is in, it may not work as well because the 'upfront' will only be with his family and not the congregation, some of who may be uncomfortable with a atheistic approach to the service. I'd bow out to avoid making what should be a pleasant experience a bit less so for others. If the family doesn't understand, this will be the least of your troubles.

luckyme

[KaneKungFu123]

riddick,

you must have some dumb kids.

[Lestat]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think that many people attend church services and other religious functions mainly for the social aspect.

I see nothing wrong with attending mass with your family. After all, did you really travel to California to celebrate the birth of Christ with your family?

[Lestat]

Well I'm an athiest and my ex sends my kids to religious school and I don't mind one bit. My kids know that I don't believe in God, but I have always encouraged them to form their own beliefs.

In fact, I'm sure it was a little traumatic for them at first. Kids look up to their Dad and I'm sure the first thing they thought was: Is Dad wrong, or are we wrong? Since they still believe in God as of now, they may even be worried that Dad won't get into heaven, etc. etc.

Anyway, I assured them that it's ok for them to believe in God. They're still too young to contemplate it all. I want them to know that there's another way to think, but I don't want them to worry about it right now. When they get old enough I'll tell them my thoughts if they ever ask. Otherwise, I don't feel I failed as a parent at all if they wind up having different beliefs than I do.

[Lestat]

Instead of failure, you should feel pride that you have raised a son who is his own man.

And if he winds up an atheist, you should also take solace that he probably turned out a little smarter than his dad. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

(sorry, couldn't resist).

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And if he winds up an atheist, you should also take solace that he probably turned out a little smarter than his dad.

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My values lie more in being a man of honor, integrity, hard work, and discipline (something they'll get at Parris Island /images/graemlins/wink.gif ) over being an intellectual bookworm with a higher paying job than me, atheist or not.

KKF,

Nice stab at me, but I'm 21. Jackass.

- Riddick

Riddick:
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The life and teachings of Jesus Christ, though not always in practice 100% (nor should that be expected) fall under the "my values" category, which, if not successfully transmitted through the gene pool would, as I said, leave me with a feeling of failure.

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Riddick:[ QUOTE ]
KKF, Nice stab at me, but I'm 21. Jackass.

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I think Jesus would consider you to be lukewarm. Pah-tooey (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%203:16;&version=31;)!

I'm sure you'll come back with an insult to me... which I'm sure Jesus will again be proud of. You know, hate your enemies... curse those who curse you... if someone slaps you, slap them back. Those are the very things Jesus taught.

[Unoriginalname]

I'm agnostic. I usually abstain from going to church, but I might go on rare occasions if I know it would make a close family member really happy. Usually, anyone I go to church with, knows me well enough to know my thoughts on religion. I've usually made it crystal clear to them that the chances of me ever "giving my life to Jesus" are virtually zero, and they respect that. I won't go through any of the motions though, like praying, kneeling, singing, etc.