why the disparity between knowledge and results?

Why, in your opinion can literally hundreds of thousands of players buy proven how to poker books and not translate the knowledge into consistent cash results?

[Etric]

They apply the concepts at the wrong time / play too loose preflop.

Playing winning poker is boring.

[ QUOTE ]
Playing winning poker is boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I second that. I have been playing a lot of SNGs lately and people play great for the first say 2 levels then something bad happens they let there emotions get involved and next thing you know they are calling to the river with only top pair.

Knowing what to do is one thing. Having the discipline to do it is another.

you think it is mostly discipline versus the hard to explain intangibles ? Like "know your player" and 'it's all situational"?

[Niediam]

1) They are stupid. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Talking to people who have an 'average' intelligence sometimes frustrates me. And then to think that half the people are even less intelligent...

2) They do not work at their game. They might read a book once but they don't study it and truely take the time to think about their game.

Truly Niediam? You think the "average" person is just lazy?

[Niediam]

That wasn't quite what I meant... even though perhaps in today's world it's atleast somewhat true.

Most people probably just don't want to put in the work needed to become a good poker player because they would rather use the time at work, with family, cleaning out the basement, etc.

in context to the discussion... do you play professionally?

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, in your opinion can literally hundreds of thousands of players buy proven how to poker books and not translate the knowledge into consistent cash results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that the majority of people who buy a good poker book (SSHE, HOH, etc.) never finish reading it. They read some of it, they play some poker, they read a little more, and the book ends up on the shelf. I read somewhere that surveys have shown that only about 10% of self-help books purchased are completely read.

There is no reason to believe that it is any different for poker books. Those books take an effort to read and understand. Most people are put off by math and by thinking about general principles. I can just see the average player trying to read a discussion about implied odds, bogging down, putting the book aside, and turning on the WPT.

They are looking for a quick fix, a cook book for winning. There have been a number of posts here by people who have read SSHE, but are convinced that they are not winning because the starting hand charts are not right for their games. Their requests for "better" charts shows they didn't get it. They are convinved that if they just had the right chart for Party 1/2 6 max, or whatever, they could turn pro and retire early.

I'm sure that most of the people who do read books like these get nowhere near the potential benefit. You don't read a book like HOH like you read a novel. You study it like you study a text book in a tough college course. This is tougher than college, because the answer to every test question is, "It depends". You need to read the book, play some poker, study the book, play some more, analyse your results, study some more, and repeat. It takes a lot more thought and work than the average day job.

excellent response, thank you. How long did it take you to "get it" after studying the recommended books?

by the way I read a similar study done on "In Search of Excellence" and it said 14% so you are right on the money there.

[DrPhysic]

I think that of those who do read the book, many read it like a novel, not doing the problems, thinking out the answers, learning to do the analysis, and especially taking the time to read the important books a second or third time.

("Important": I have read TOP 4 times, Positively Fifth Street and Killer Poker once. Maybe I am guilty, there may be something in KP that I just didn't get the first time, but I wasn't impressed.)

Doc

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing winning poker is boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I second that. I have been playing a lot of SNGs lately and people play great for the first say 2 levels then something bad happens they let there emotions get involved and next thing you know they are calling to the river with only top pair.

Knowing what to do is one thing. Having the discipline to do it is another.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the best poker I've ever played was live when I went up 10 times the buy in with no cards: playing ultra aggressively and reading every opponent all the time, the exact opposite of boring, I got burnt out quickly. But for online i'd have to agree, I counter by multi tabling. But then again i suck, so take my advice with reservations.

[Niediam]

I also only read Killer Poker once, and this was over a year ago, but I thought the book was garbage.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that most of the people who do read books like these get nowhere near the potential benefit. You don't read a book like HOH like you read a novel. You study it like you study a text book in a tough college course.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my own personal experience, I almost took 3 months to read HOH2. I would read a chapter (or part of a chapter) and then go back and read what I had highlighted. Then the next day I would read the highlighted areas of the area I read the day before and then read the next section.

This might be overkill for many, but it helped me to retain the ideas in the book. I'm sure very few people who buy such books (except 2+2'ers /images/graemlins/cool.gif) put this much effort into learning from books (and not just reading the book).

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]

I have read TOP 4 times, Positively Fifth Street and Killer Poker once. Maybe I am guilty, there may be something in KP that I just didn't get the first time, but I wasn't impressed.

Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget Killer Poker. You'd be better off rereading PFS for some relaxation and entertainment.

[benkahuna]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, in your opinion can literally hundreds of thousands of players buy proven how to poker books and not translate the knowledge into consistent cash results?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Incorrectly applied knowledge.
2. Reading the wrong books.
3. Variance (it takes very long term to be assured of winning with strong play--read Gambling Theory and Other Topics)
4. Discomfort in situations leading to tactical mistakes (such as used to online play, but playing live, distractions, etc.)
5. There are often topics not covered in books that people need to know and understand. Many sites have different trends and playing styles at the same limits. Books often have a more cookie-cutter approach to a game that doesn't adjust for playing styles. Those that do a good job of discussing adjustments to different playing styles are often difficult to apply and it may take time to assess the game one is in.

[roueful]

A poker book is like a cookbook, it's got directions, it's not too complex, most people can do it, but you have to pay attention and have some idea what you're doing.

Otherwise you end up with a flat poker souffle.

i think it comes down to one thing - majority of players don't know how to apply what they've learned/read (incorporate it into their gameplan... that is, if they even have one in the first place).

they either overdo it or underdo it. or, they apply what they've learned/read at the wrong time. the trick is not following what you've read/learned to the letter... BUT understanding *WHY* the book told you to do a certain thing in a certain situation. you have to understand the *IDEA* (the reasoning) behind it and not just blindly do what a book tells you to do.

[jj_frap]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing winning poker is boring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I second that. I have been playing a lot of SNGs lately and people play great for the first say 2 levels then something bad happens they let there emotions get involved and next thing you know they are calling to the river with only top pair.

Knowing what to do is one thing. Having the discipline to do it is another.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahaha...While I was playing the middle stages of a PokerStars $3 MTT yesterday, some dunce took a bit of a bad beat right after being moved to my table but still had a reasonable stack.

For the next few hands, he played like a complete donkey and ended up -- while still having a reasonably middling stack -- calling AA's raise with K7o and pushing against flopped quad aces on the turn.

[WordWhiz]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, in your opinion can [b]literally hundreds of thousands of players [b]buy proven how to poker books and not translate the knowledge into consistent cash results?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you 100% sure about that? I know 2+2 recently sold its 1,000,000th book. I've bought about a dozen poker books myself, and I've been playing less than a year. I could easily imagine that fewer than 100,000 distinct people in this country have ever purchased (much less read) two or more poker books.

it has been estimated that about 50 million people play poker at some level...to imagine that 2 or 3% have bought poker books is not beyond my imagination...if you have an "opinion" about the question please share

should read... to imagine that .2 or .3% have bought poker books...

[DrPhysic]

I kind of knew that. Thanks for the feedback.

My real point tho, was that people tend to READ, not STUDY. There is a difference.

Doc /images/graemlins/smile.gif

excellent post.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Why, in your opinion can literally hundreds of thousands of players buy proven how to poker books and not translate the knowledge into consistent cash results?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO...

1) Selection - There are dozens of poker books out there, a good percentage of them (perhaps the majority of them) teach incorrect play.

2) Comphrension - Poker is not easy. I don't think anyone with "average" intelligence can fully absorb a book like SSH.

3) Application - What type of games do we apply HEPAP versus SSH versus ToP versus HoH against? How about this particular opponent? How about in a tournament versus cash game?

4) Emotional / Discipline - Everyone goes on tilt, it's a matter of when and how you react to it.

[ QUOTE ]
1) They are stupid. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Talking to people who have an 'average' intelligence sometimes frustrates me. And then to think that half the people are even less intelligent...

2) They do not work at their game. They might read a book once but they don't study it and truely take the time to think about their game.

[/ QUOTE ]