Checking the flop with a monster on a scary board

I've noticed that on .5/1 Party tables that checking the flop tends to get more action on the turn. The cases that I notice this is when a big hand hits the flop but there is a two flush as well. The pot is too big to make the flush draw wrong with the small bet so I check and wait till the turn to lead out. Here is an example:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

No, I don't know why I didn't bet the river, bad kero, no biscuit.

This example may not be the best because I wasn't even thinking that someone had hit the straight, but since starting to wait to the turn instead of leading out I've noticed that it's like the other players think the flop missed me and are more likely to bet into me with 2nd or 3rd best hands. I'm not using this as a standard line yet because it seems a little too fancy and most flush chasers don't pot odds from pot roast. Thoughts?

Edit: Got rid of the straight from the example hand, dissregard anything straight related in this post.

[Vote4Pedro]

This board is waaaay too coordinated to allow for a free card...I almost never check behind when I was the PFR, but if I do, the flop is usually K72r

[shant]

I don't like giving free cards. This is too fancy IMO. Just bet they will give you their money.

[gharp]

I think not betting the flop is pretty bad, but there's a certain logic to it. Still, you're putting yourself in a situation where you could be putting money in only when your behind and none when you're ahead.

And not betting the river is a crime against all the Micro Limits Forum stands for!

OK, this is bad example because the board is double coordinated. I should have found an example that didn't include the straight draw.

Forget the straight. Forget the straight. Forget the straight. What I tell you 3 times is true.

The point is that the pot is too big to bet someone off a flush draw on the flop. It's a case where betting doesn't improve your odds of winning. Waiting for the turn gives you a better shot at getting rid of a flush draw. Not much with the micro limit players but still. What I've noticed is that when the flush misses the turn I tend to get more action compared to un-coordinated boards where I lead out on all streets.

[gharp]

You really can't drive a flush draw out -- the odds are just too good for them (or you, when you have the flush draw).

Here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=&amp;Number=459928&amp;page=&amp; view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=) is a good post from the archives on this topic.

[shant]

People have really started to misapply the hand protection "wait for the turn" concept. You can't lose the flush draw, so just bet your hand for value and collect the money. Giving correct odds is better than giving infinite odds.

Thanks for the link gharp, it is a good one.

Looking at a couple of these hands I'm starting to think it is a matter of too much cough medicine and selective memory rather than trickery into getting a lead out turn bet that I can raise for another bet.

you. must. bet. the. flop. big. pot. no. free. cards.

Yea, I'm getting the point. Lets play what if though. Say you are in late position and hit tp/tk on the flop. Multiple players check to you, if you bet the flop you will get called by a couple of players who think there hand is good. They will then c/c to the river unimproved so you get 2.5 bb leading out.

If you check the flop and induce a bet from someone out of position who thinks you missed the flop then raise them and they c/c to the river you get 3 bb. Is risking .5 bb to get an extra .5 bb worth it ever?

It strikes me as FPS but it's been something I've been thinking about recently. Probably follows the slow play rules though and in the long run isn't worth it.

[gharp]

There's a whole lot of variables involved in milking that extra 0.5 bet and it's possible you'll get far less. I'll agree that against the right mix of players it could be better to slow-play this hand. But the typical micro-limit player is personified by their love of calling and the best way to exploit that is to just bet.

Speaking of betting...why didn't you bet that river?

I have issues on the river sometimes and I'm not sure where they come from. It is something I'm working on. It's not like I wasn't going to call a bet if one of the other two in the hand woke up and bet. My aggro is a little over 1.3 and I think part of it is I'm too passive with made hands on the river. I blame my mother. She always warned me about getting c/r on the river...

this card is a blank and you should bet it like a lot. The times you you get c/r will be more than made up by the times they check and call your bet with a marginal hand. This is another key idea stressed by SSHE.

[ QUOTE ]
YOU! MUST! BET! THE! FLOP!

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I meant to answer this one but forgot. This is a smallish pot you'd rather just pick up on the flop. This hand falls into the category of a strong hand, where you bet for value--you can't really protect it. With only a true monster do you want to try to build the pot.

IMO it is very bad to not bet the flop here as well as the river. Defend your hand, bet out.

[bozlax]

I see neither a monster nor a scary board, here. And, while a flush draw could properly call a bet (or even raise) on this flop, why does that mean that you should give them a free card? Give a free card when you're not sure if you've got the best hand and if you do the free card isn't likely to make it the worst. You got lucky that UTG+1 bet for you on the turn. An entire SPCA of stray kittens died when you checked the river.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, this is bad example because the board is double coordinated. I should have found an example that didn't include the straight draw.

Forget the straight. Forget the straight. Forget the straight. What I tell you 3 times is true.

The point is that the pot is too big to bet someone off a flush draw on the flop. It's a case where betting doesn't improve your odds of winning. Waiting for the turn gives you a better shot at getting rid of a flush draw. Not much with the micro limit players but still. What I've noticed is that when the flush misses the turn I tend to get more action compared to un-coordinated boards where I lead out on all streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the first place, you're not trying to get anyone off a flush draw. You're trying to increase the amount you win from them the 65% of the time their flush doesn't hit.

Second, the last part of this is idiotic. You're going to get LESS action from a flush draw when the turn doesn't hit them, not more.

Finally, this hand was badly played, this hand was badly played, this hand was badly played.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Is risking .5 bb to get an extra .5 bb worth it ever?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can answer this question for yourself. Hint: how much pot equity do you need to make it right to risk .5 to win .5?

[Pedigree]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO it is very bad to not bet the flop here as well as the river. Defend your hand, bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not really defending your hand against anything but a smaller pair. Don't bet out to defend your hand. Bet out for value.