The Nuts... now what?

I thought about this for some time and although it might not be of any major importance, I'm wondering what others think.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB.
Results in white below:<font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ah Ks (a flush, ace high.)
UTG+1 has Qd Qh (a flush, king high.)
Hero wins 13.00 BB.
</font>
Ok, thats the hand. I'm interested in what you think about this:

At the river, I waited 23 seconds before betting, hoping to trick UTG+1. The board obviously 4-flushed, I had the absolute nuts and thought a bit about yielding the maximum result.

I tried to appear bluffing, by faking to fear his possible flush, and then after a while deciding to bet. He called me down so far, so I figured it couldnt hurt to give it a try. Maybe he tried to bluff me, or even had a flush, i was going to win anyway.

As you can see it made me another 2BB, at zero-risk. I'd say thats not too bad, although this situation probably isn't that common. He had the second-nuts, that really helped calling my raise. I'm not sure what players would do after they raised my "bluff" and get reraised, I suppose they would fold, or feel too committed and call anyway.

What do you think about using the factor reaction-time at the river to induce your opponents? Is it even worth thinking about or is it way to marginal? Any thoughts?

Oh btw, please tell me if you see another way I could've maximized this hand.

ps. 1st post yay *dances*

[Vote4Pedro]

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At the river, I waited 23 seconds before betting, hoping to trick UTG+1. The board obviously 4-flushed, I had the absolute nuts and thought a bit about yielding the maximum result.


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Thats just bad business, theres absolutely no way pulling "Hollywood" garbage like this is gonna induce him to take a shot at you.

[macdaddy991]

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At the river, I waited 23 seconds before betting, hoping to trick UTG+1. The board obviously 4-flushed, I had the absolute nuts and thought a bit about yielding the maximum result.

I tried to appear bluffing, by faking to fear his possible flush, and then after a while deciding to bet. He called me down so far, so I figured it couldnt hurt to give it a try. Maybe he tried to bluff me, or even had a flush, i was going to win anyway.

As you can see it made me another 2BB, at zero-risk. I'd say thats not too bad, although this situation probably isn't that common. He had the second-nuts, that really helped calling my raise. I'm not sure what players would do after they raised my "bluff" and get reraised, I suppose they would fold, or feel too committed and call anyway.

What do you think about using the factor reaction-time at the river to induce your opponents? Is it even worth thinking about or is it way to marginal? Any thoughts?



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Just bet out. Don't wait that long. You have been betting the entire way and he will raise if he thinks he rivered you. Fancy play syndrom will only hurt your earn in the nano limits. Just play mostly straight forward and you will make money. Also playing for am image is almost moot because players are not paying attention to you anyway.

[Eeegah]

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Openfold the river.

dangit, totally missed the lower hearts /images/graemlins/frown.gif you're right...

I don't see why it's "Hollywood garbage" tho.

[Vote4Pedro]

how about "WPT/WSOP crap"?

Theres just no reason to take this long...He would've check/raised regardless of how long you waited. All you did was waste time

[macdaddy991]

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I don't see why it's "Hollywood garbage" tho.

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Because you are wasting your time worrying about how to play the second nuts HU on the river. These plays are pretty straight forward. Even if you open folded, it would not be a huge mistake in the long run because this decision comes up really infrequently. Focus on other areas of your game, areas that you have to make a decision about most of the time. PF calls, flop protection, playing draws. These concepts are much more important and much more frequent then the OP situation you described.

Sorry, I never watched poker on the television.
The first line of the post already claimed that it probably wasn't of any importance, just wanted to get some views. I understand that the microlimits forum isn't the perfect place for this, but heck, first posts always screw up /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bozlax]

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I'm interested in what you think about this...
ps. 1st post yay *dances*

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Uh, I think you got a great hand (it isn't the nuts, btw), you won a fairly large pot, and you wanted to post the hand. Success on all counts, nh!

Oh, and dude? He checked to you on the river. He's either c/r'ing you or c/f'ing you, how long you take to act is immaterial. He's decided his play, he doesn't care about what you do. If you were first to act, then there are those on this board that might tell you that your delay had an effect (I'm not one of them) but when you're checked to no way.

[tassie]

you are assuming that your pause influenced his behaviour. wouldnt he call you anyway with the second nut flush.

okay, got some things cleared
thanks all

[shant]

I hope next time you do this you time out and it folds.

did you ask him why he c/r'd you?

Sometimes I ask them blatant questions about their strategy, or what their cards were, and they tell me.

[Vote4Pedro]

You wouldnt C/R?

[shant]

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did you ask him why he c/r'd you?

Sometimes I ask them blatant questions about their strategy, or what their cards were, and they tell me.

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Why would you ask someone about their strategy who played QQ this badly?

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I hope next time you do this you time out and it folds.

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thanks mate

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did you ask him why he c/r'd you?

Sometimes I ask them blatant questions about their strategy, or what their cards were, and they tell me.

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Why would you ask someone about their strategy who played QQ this badly?

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i suspect the dude's 20-minute pause against this donk worked

[shant]

The guy was check/raising the second nuts regardless of wait time. He played his QQ to get the flush and got there, he's not check/calling.

Hero 3-bet pre-flop, bet flop and turn, and the guy doesn't figure a possibility that Hero may have the A/images/graemlins/heart.gif? The pause casts doubt against a donk. I'm not saying it's a great play, but if villain would have bet the river in the same motion as the previous streets, I see the donk just calling.

[bozlax]

If the guy's a donk, he's not worrying at all about what you have in your hand. If he's not a donk, I don't think he's making reads based on how long it takes you to act when there's a four-flush on the board.

Wasn't there a whole thread in the past couple of months on pause-based reads?

@buzz: thats kinda where i wanted to go..
@bozlax: cant tell you about that thread, didnt try search

(edit: the @'s)

[shant]

Seriously, this pause tell thing is retarded. Do you find yourself getting checkraised when you get up to get a drink of water, or if your connection lags? I know I always get raised after I take a few seconds too long looking at action on another table. Last night while I was looking for something else to watch on TV, someone check 3-bet me on the river.

Time based tells are stupid. Do you think this guy would've checkraised you with a lower flush or with a set because you paused?

He was check/calling for runner runner, hit and got cute. If he was actually paying attention to anything he'd have folded to the 3-bet because at that point what does he beat? Unless of course you paused again.

Well, all i noticed during play was that when i changed the pace of the betting/calling, he changed his action. You might be right he is chasing his flush, but on the other hand, at micro, how often is QQ laid down...So yes, i think my pausing at least put some doubt on him, as buzz-cp said.

[bozlax]

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Well, all i noticed during play was that when i changed the pace of the betting/calling, he changed his action. You might be right he is chasing his flush, but on the other hand, at micro, how often is QQ laid down...So yes, i think my pausing at least put some doubt on him, as buzz-cp said.

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How do you know? In order to make this statement, you'd have to know what he was GOING to do vs. what he DID do. (Edit: and in order to be able to get that read online, you'd have to have thousands of hands on Villan, that'd you'd studied with a microscope. Live at least you might see him going back for extra chips or something.)

And, you're right, QQ isn't going to get laid down in micros...for him the backdoor flush draw was just a bonus. And the 2nd (ok, 3rd, but I bet your Villan didn't notice the sf any more than you did) nut flush is going to be raised on the river about 100% of the time...maybe more.

Shant is right...timing-based tells are garbage. Me scratching my nuts before I bet/call may be a tell, but it's not because of the time it take me; I just want to make sure they're still there when I'm considering raising 3rd pair on the river.

Let me restate I was still speculating, and that is why I suggest he ask the dude why he checkraised.

Well I guess indeed with the multitabling, ballscratching and all there are just too much random delays to really base anything on timing.

Thanks for sharing your views.

[bozlax]

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Let me restate I was still speculating, and that is why I suggest he ask the dude why he checkraised.

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Yeah, and with all due respect, I think this is an even stupider idea than waiting to bet because you think it'll change your opponent's action. Either he tells you, confirming something you already had a read on (he's not a very good player), he surprises you with something ("my cat told me to"), in which case he's probably lying, or he says, "Who check-whatted where?" (which would be my response). Don't talk about strategy at any table that's not a 2+2 table set up for the purpose...it's -EV.

point taken, Boz

I think your move was pretty cool. Im going to use it today.

after all the previous comments im not sure with how much sarcasm im dealing /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bozlax]

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after all the previous comments im not sure with how much sarcasm im dealing /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Meh. Ryan's a donk. I'm sure he's serious. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Shillx]

His play is fine until the river. The check/raise-call sucks in that spot. Betting is certainly called for the way the hand was played out, and calling a raise looks to be a smart move as well. Don't do what he did on the river (though check/calling the rest is an okay way to play QQ here).

Brad

Not bad. I definetly suggest waiting atleast 26 seconds to bet though. 19 seconds with two other players in the pot.

[hexag1]

the nuts is 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif