Which street is worst?

[NLSoldier]

MP is sorta lag/tag and has been openning a lot. Other guy is fishy.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[TStoneMBD]

i think the worst street is the turn.

preflop is ok, maybe a little -ev but not much.

flop check is reasonable since you have no folding equity and the only hope you have of taking this pot down is on the turn. if the BB has ace high hell probably be taking it to showdown anyway. i like the check.

turn bet looks bad to me. there are now a million draws on the board and you have no chance of taking it down. if the BB has ace high he is probably taking it to showdown now. you have no folding equity and no draws.

after everyone checks to you on the river i would have bet it as well.

[imitation]

what he said, but preflop is ridiculous

[ QUOTE ]
i think the worst street is the turn.

preflop is ok, maybe a little -ev but not much.

flop check is reasonable since you have no folding equity and the only hope you have of taking this pot down is on the turn. if the BB has ace high hell probably be taking it to showdown anyway. i like the check.

turn bet looks bad to me. there are now a million draws on the board and you have no chance of taking it down. if the BB has ace high he is probably taking it to showdown now. you have no folding equity and no draws.

after everyone checks to you on the river i would have bet it as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Schneids]

The river is good. Preflop I don't care might be good might not be, you were there I wasn't. Flop is fine. I think the turn is a bet if it isn't a 3rd club but since it's a third club you have no idea whether you're being called down by ace high or if the guy is calling your bet with KcTx or something so now you're stuck firing two barrels once you commit yourself to betting the turn, so, I'd probably check the turn again if I checked the flop (I don't care whether you bet or check the flop).

My vote is turn.

[TheMetetron]

Turn, followed closely by preflop.

[Lmn55d]

turn, you're not taking it down here enough and are gonna be raised off a hand that has outs sometimes

[Victor]

i like the river.

[NLSoldier]

for you guys who say river is good: you agree that the river is good only because I bet the turn, right? Im assuming you would hate a river bet after a turn check?

[baronzeus]

Why does everyone think preflop is bad? He raised in CO, hero 3bet on the button. It's fine. KJ is an auto3bet, so QJo can't be that bad.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
for you guys who say river is good: you agree that the river is good only because I bet the turn, right? Im assuming you would hate a river bet after a turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. The river is good cuz you bet the turn, but the turn bet may not be so hot.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for you guys who say river is good: you agree that the river is good only because I bet the turn, right? Im assuming you would hate a river bet after a turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. The river is good cuz you bet the turn, but the turn bet may not be so hot.

[/ QUOTE ]

what exactly is the problem with the turn bet? when they check to me, Im pretty certain neitehr have a pair. so basically Im betting to charge the lone clubs and set up my river bluff at the same time. do you guys really think they are gonna pay off both streets with ace high no club?

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
so basically Im betting to charge the lone clubs

[/ QUOTE ]

You're charging the lone clubs with queen high?

[ QUOTE ]
set up my river bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

When you bet the turn the pot is 4.75 BB. If we assume between 1 and 2 opponents will call the turn, you will risk 2BB (turn + river) to win either 5.75 BB or 6.75 BB (average of 6.25BB). This is about 3:1.

Sometimes these guys will hit their draws or, since they act first, can bluff before you can. Also it is possible that one does, in fact, hold a small pair (couldn't MP have 44 or 55?). And if one holds the ace of clubs you will often be called on the river. On top of that, you will sometimes be checkraised on the turn which won't allow you to complete your 2 barrel bluff and sometimes this causes you to forfeit some equity in the pot (if you have outs). The whole 2bet parlay just doesn't work enough. When you are on the river , however, the pot is pretty large since you bet the turn and your opponents river action (and the river card) give you information to make a +EV river bet.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]

When you bet the turn the pot is 4.75 BB. If we assume between 1 and 2 opponents will call the turn, you will risk 2BB (turn + river) to win either 5.75 BB or 6.75 BB (average of 6.25BB). This is about 3:1.

Sometimes these guys will hit their draws or, since they act first, can bluff before you can. Also it is possible that one does, in fact, hold a small pair (couldn't MP have 44 or 55?). And if one holds the ace of clubs you will often be called on the river. On top of that, you will sometimes be checkraised on the turn which won't allow you to complete your 2 barrel bluff and sometimes this causes you to forfeit some equity in the pot (if you have outs). The whole 2bet parlay just doesn't work enough. When you are on the river , however, the pot is pretty large since you bet the turn and your opponents river action (and the river card) give you information to make a +EV river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


im never going to reply to any thread again unless it already has several replys, then I can just come in and quote the awesome responses (see above) and con people into thinking im smart!

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so basically Im betting to charge the lone clubs

[/ QUOTE ]

You're charging the lone clubs with queen high?


[/ QUOTE ]

why not? even if they have Ace or King high, arent I still getting value if they will fold the river when they miss?

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
set up my river bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

When you bet the turn the pot is 4.75 BB. If we assume between 1 and 2 opponents will call the turn, you will risk 2BB (turn + river) to win either 5.75 BB or 6.75 BB (average of 6.25BB). This is about 3:1.

Sometimes these guys will hit their draws or, since they act first, can bluff before you can. Also it is possible that one does, in fact, hold a small pair (couldn't MP have 44 or 55?). And if one holds the ace of clubs you will often be called on the river. On top of that, you will sometimes be checkraised on the turn which won't allow you to complete your 2 barrel bluff and sometimes this causes you to forfeit some equity in the pot (if you have outs). The whole 2bet parlay just doesn't work enough. When you are on the river , however, the pot is pretty large since you bet the turn and your opponents river action (and the river card) give you information to make a +EV river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think chances of them holding a small pair and chances of them checkraising are really small. I agree the parlay probably doenst work quite often enough, but I dont think its as bad as some have suggested.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
for you guys who say river is good: you agree that the river is good only because I bet the turn, right? Im assuming you would hate a river bet after a turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]

i like the river bc the pot is big and your only chance of winning is to bet.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
why not? even if they have Ace or King high, arent I still getting value if they will fold the river when they miss?

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I look at it, you're giving up value on the turn in order to make a +EV bluff on the river. The river is where you can realize any "value." On the turn, if you are called, your opponents are the ones getting the value usually.

[flawless_victory]

easily the turn, which is prob the only street u misplayed...
preflop is 100% correct.
flop, meh.
turn, whyyyyy??
river, i wouldve most likely checked and i think i should be bluffing here more often... too often i check down trying to save a bet and keep my image intact and lose to Khigh... i like the bet.

[Victor]

i just read this post again. i would definitely bet the flop. you will likely get enough folds for the pot size.

[Lmn55d]

I also would bet the flop since it is paired. If it were not I would usually check. I think this is a good spot to use the fold equity you pick up from 3betting to either take it on the flop or the turn or see a free river.

[baronzeus]

I can't believe 37% of people voted preflop. That is just absurd.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe 37% of people voted preflop. That is just absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

holy [censored]. i never looked at the pole. i guess i gotta vote too.
im gonna vote flop now that i thought about it.

[MAxx]

I voted turn. However, I was thinking the flop at first. Little light pf, but whateva... nothin bad there. Based on your line, river is aproaching auto.

[Nikla]

Flop.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, i thought flop was probably the best, i obviously have some serious problems with my game.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am so glad you said this! I thought i crazy, WTF IS EVERYONE THINKING? we're 5 handed, people opening stardards are basically any two cards, and the flop is like 866. How are we not betting this in position? IMO, the flop and turn are close in terms of total badness, because no one is folding a club, 5, or 9 now. That turn card is a BAAAD card to bluff at.

Preflop isnt that bad, this 3 bet is one you need to make from time to time to keep people honest shorthanded, just as long as its not your standard line here.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am so glad you said this! I thought i crazy, WTF IS EVERYONE THINKING? we're 5 handed, people opening stardards are basically any two cards, and the flop is like 866. How are we not betting this in position? IMO, the flop and turn are close in terms of total badness, because no one is folding a club, 5, or 9 now. That turn card is a BAAAD card to bluff at.

Preflop isnt that bad, this 3 bet is one you need to make from time to time to keep people honest shorthanded, just as long as its not your standard line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im arguing with people way better than me, but IMO, you dont have the best hand on this flop, and no one is folding on this flop, so why put in money with the worst hand and no chance to win it outright?

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for you guys who say river is good: you agree that the river is good only because I bet the turn, right? Im assuming you would hate a river bet after a turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]


Right. The river is good cuz you bet the turn, but the turn bet may not be so hot.

[/ QUOTE ]

what exactly is the problem with the turn bet? when they check to me, Im pretty certain neitehr have a pair. so basically Im betting to charge the lone clubs and set up my river bluff at the same time. do you guys really think they are gonna pay off both streets with ace high no club?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I voted flop, and preflop ran a close 2nd. The river is obviously perfect (but only because you bet the turn) and I think the turn was fine. Probably riskier at 20/40, because I'd be more likely to expect a checkraise semibluff, but certainly at 10/20 and below I often bet here to charge people for a draw, so that I can win it with a bet on the river if a blank falls. In other words, whether your thinking is flawed or not . . . it's exactly mine as well /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am so glad you said this! I thought i crazy, WTF IS EVERYONE THINKING? we're 5 handed, people opening stardards are basically any two cards, and the flop is like 866. How are we not betting this in position? IMO, the flop and turn are close in terms of total badness, because no one is folding a club, 5, or 9 now. That turn card is a BAAAD card to bluff at.

Preflop isnt that bad, this 3 bet is one you need to make from time to time to keep people honest shorthanded, just as long as its not your standard line here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im arguing with people way better than me, but IMO, you dont have the best hand on this flop, and no one is folding on this flop, so why put in money with the worst hand and no chance to win it outright?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah this is my thought. I have almost no fold equity and I think by checking the flop I actually have a better chance of taking it down on the turn if it bricks and they check to me again. (Obviously this turn was not a brick)

[imitation]

I think flop is bad if preflop is good. But preflop is almost certainly bad so flop is good, but flop is good and then the turn is bad, the river is good.