basic? (an arguement)

[oreogod]

kill an argument. No reads. Just jumped in the game, this is BBs first hand.

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, Button calls, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero.....

Plan? Also turn was a 9 completing the rainbow.

Given that there's a decent chance the hero has the best hand, I would bet the flop and hope the BB raises with a hand I am ahead of.

[oreogod]

Forgot to say, what do u do on the turn if u bet and get raised on the flop. Do u c/c or b/c?

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Forgot to say, what do u do on the turn if u bet and get raised on the flop. Do u c/c or b/c?

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Well if its just me and the BB and I have no read, I would probably check/call the turn and river. Im sure there are plenty of good arguments for betting the turn, and if someone chose that line I would see nothing wrong with that. The way I see it, if the villain has two overcards, and its just me and him, he will bet this turn almost every time hoping I will fold, so a Big bet goes into the pot whether I check or bet, and I would much rather show this hand down for 2BB then 3BB, plus by checking and calling I can never get outplayed off the best hand. Also, If an Ace hits the river I would check and fold.

As an aside: If BB was one of those friendly LAG chaps (but not LAG enough that I was confident he would raise with overs) I'd check it to him and see what the action was coming back to me. If it's going to be a twenty out circus going to the turn I'd probably just peel and reevaluate the turn / hope to spike. If it comes back raised I can fold. If at least one of them folds I'd c/r.

As a default donking is probably best. If BB raised the donk I'd bet/call on the turn and fold the river UI if he raised.

[Lmn55d]

I don't think an unknown raises overs enough to make betting more profitable than checking. I don't think it gets checked through very often, and sometimes you will be able to make a good fold if it comes back to you for 2. Or checkraise the PFR if it is folded back to you.

If you have a read that says that PFR is aggressive enough to raise overs, or one that says he wouldn't continuation bet the flop, then I think betting is fine.

I used to bet into the PFR a lot in these spots, and I still think it is a reasonable play, but I have come to like checking unless I have a reason to believe he'll raise a worse hand.

[dave44]

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I don't think an unknown raises overs enough to make betting more profitable than checking. I don't think it gets checked through very often, and sometimes you will be able to make a good fold if it comes back to you for 2. Or checkraise the PFR if it is folded back to you.

If you have a read that says that PFR is aggressive enough to raise overs, or one that says he wouldn't continuation bet the flop, then I think betting is fine.

I used to bet into the PFR a lot in these spots, and I still think it is a reasonable play, but I have come to like checking unless I have a reason to believe he'll raise a worse hand.

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I agree with this. The range of hands different people will raise your flop donk with tends to vary a lot, so it makes for some difficult play on the big streets, too. If you can narrow that range down with a read then the flop donk is much better.

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I don't think an unknown raises overs enough to make betting more profitable than checking. I don't think it gets checked through very often, and sometimes you will be able to make a good fold if it comes back to you for 2. Or checkraise the PFR if it is folded back to you.

If you have a read that says that PFR is aggressive enough to raise overs, or one that says he wouldn't continuation bet the flop, then I think betting is fine.

I used to bet into the PFR a lot in these spots, and I still think it is a reasonable play, but I have come to like checking unless I have a reason to believe he'll raise a worse hand.

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I like your reasoning, and if the flop came out J64r, I would check and see what develops. But on a flop of 864, I feel that the probability of the hero having the best hand is high enough to justify a bet. But i certainly cant disagree with how you approach the situation.

Conceptually I look at 106 on an 864 board almost the same way as if I had AT on an T64 board. Obviously those situations are not the same but I would play them the same in that situation.

[spamuell]

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Conceptually I look at 106 on an 864 board almost the same way as if I had AT on an T64 board. Obviously those situations are not the same but I would play them the same in that situation.

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So, in both cases, you check, pfr bets there's a fold and a raise and it's you to act. Is your action the same in both examples and if so, what is it?

[Lmn55d]

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Conceptually I look at 106 on an 864 board almost the same way as if I had AT on an T64 board. Obviously those situations are not the same but I would play them the same in that situation.

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On the T64 board I like the checkraise even more because I'm fine with checkraising the whole field for value. If I knew PFR would raise with overs then I would bet. But in that spot your hand has a much higher equity IMO and your decision will be simpler when the action returns to you on the flop.

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Conceptually I look at 106 on an 864 board almost the same way as if I had AT on an T64 board. Obviously those situations are not the same but I would play them the same in that situation.

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So, in both cases, you check, pfr bets there's a fold and a raise and it's you to act. Is your action the same in both examples and if so, what is it?

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In both those situations I would bet, so I wouldnt be facing this problem. This is what I mean when I say I would treat T6 on an 864r board the same as AT on a T64 board. If I misclicked and checked in both these situations and the action went bet raise. I would probably grit my teeth and 3 bet with AT since I probably have the flop aggressor beat and the PFR can still easly have just 2 overs, and I would fold the T6 since given this new information, the probabitily that I have both the PFR beat and the flop aggressor beat is too low, and I dont have the odds to draw to my 5 outer.

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Conceptually I look at 106 on an 864 board almost the same way as if I had AT on an T64 board. Obviously those situations are not the same but I would play them the same in that situation.

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On the T64 board I like the checkraise even more because I'm fine with checkraising the whole field for value. If I knew PFR would raise with overs then I would bet. But in that spot your hand has a much higher equity IMO and your decision will be simpler when the action returns to you on the flop.

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I agree with you that your equity is much higher with AT on the T64 flop, but in both situations there is a good chance you have the best hand but you still could be losing to an overpair. I know it is obvious that the probability that you have the best hand with AT on the T64 board is much higher than the T6 on the 864 board, but I would play both the same in this situation against an unknown PFR.
I dont like the Idea of checkraising the field with AT on a T64 board, this is not the kind of hand I like to trap the field with, so I would bet out the flop and hope the raiser raises with overcards. Like I said before though, I really see nothing wrong with checking with T6 on the 864 board, your reasons for checking and your reasons for betting seem very sound to me, and if god came down and proved it would be better to check then bet I wouldnt be shocked. Just telling you why I would bet. If the flop was J64 im checking for the same reasons you are, or even if the flop is 964 I would also check becuz so many common limping hands have a nine in it thus lowering the probabilty I flopped the best hand. In those situations I would rather check and see what happens. On the 8 high flop I would rather bet, since the probability I have the best hand is decent enough for me to bet here.