Thin 3-handed?

[Entity]

Reads: Kurosh is the Button. He's pretty LAGGY with his 3-handed opening standards and seems to keep betting until people tell him not to. SB is a LAG who is more passive preflop, and from what I've seen who seems destined to give as much money away as possible. He's genuinely horrible. I'm sure Kurosh knows this, as it was HU for a while before I sat (I sat because I had played with the LAG a bunch).

Kurosh opens. SB calls. I call in the BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop is 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB calls, I call.

The turn is the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB checkraises, I call two...

[Alobar]

why you gotta be salting kuroshs game! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

as for the hand, I think the turn call is pretty bad, kurosh is going to put you squarely on the draw, so its not like hes going to fold thinking you have a hand cuz you called the 2 cold, and now you can win with your Q high vs the lag. Which brings us to the fact thats all you have, Q high and a really crappy gutshot draw, and even worse the betting is still open, so you might get to pay 3 bets for the privillege of seeing the river card. but either way, even if kurosh has crap and folds, I still dont like my Q high here for 2 bets in this size pot vs the sb


meh, I cant read the board.....n/m

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
why you gotta be salting kuroshs game! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

as for the hand, I think the turn call is pretty bad, kurosh is going to put you squarely on the draw, so its not like hes going to fold thinking you have a hand cuz you called the 2 cold, and now you can win with your Q high vs the lag. Which brings us to the fact thats all you have, Q high and a really crappy gutshot draw, and even worse the betting is still open, so you might get to pay 3 bets for the privillege of seeing the river card. but either way, even if kurosh has crap and folds, I still dont like my Q high here for 2 bets in this size pot vs the sb

[/ QUOTE ]

You know I have a "kinda" doublegutter, right?

That's what I'm wondering. How clean is a 6 here?

Rob

[Alobar]

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why you gotta be salting kuroshs game! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

as for the hand, I think the turn call is pretty bad, kurosh is going to put you squarely on the draw, so its not like hes going to fold thinking you have a hand cuz you called the 2 cold, and now you can win with your Q high vs the lag. Which brings us to the fact thats all you have, Q high and a really crappy gutshot draw, and even worse the betting is still open, so you might get to pay 3 bets for the privillege of seeing the river card. but either way, even if kurosh has crap and folds, I still dont like my Q high here for 2 bets in this size pot vs the sb

[/ QUOTE ]

You know I have a "kinda" doublegutter, right?

That's what I'm wondering. How clean is a 6 here?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

blah, why you gotta be replying before I can edit my post in time /images/graemlins/smile.gif


you still dont have the odds to call tho, unless you have some other ways to win, but youve also got to taint your outs some. I fold

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
Reads: Kurosh is the Button. He's pretty LAGGY with his 3-handed opening standards and seems to keep betting until people tell him not to. SB is a LAG who is more passive preflop, and from what I've seen who seems destined to give as much money away as possible. He's genuinely horrible. I'm sure Kurosh knows this, as it was HU for a while before I sat (I sat because I had played with the LAG a bunch).

Kurosh opens. SB calls. I call in the BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop is 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB calls, I call.

The turn is the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB checkraises, I call two...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't give your straight draw more than 3-3.5 outs, if that.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

you still dont have the odds to call tho, unless you have some other ways to win, but youve also got to taint your outs some. I fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Kurosh is folding a lot more often than he's calling and calling more often than 3-betting, so I figured that my true odds were pretty close to my immediate odds. Somewhere around 7-8.5:2 with an extra 2BB in implieds being pretty realistic.

It's probably still too thin but I thought it was close at the time and peeled.

Rob

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reads: Kurosh is the Button. He's pretty LAGGY with his 3-handed opening standards and seems to keep betting until people tell him not to. SB is a LAG who is more passive preflop, and from what I've seen who seems destined to give as much money away as possible. He's genuinely horrible. I'm sure Kurosh knows this, as it was HU for a while before I sat (I sat because I had played with the LAG a bunch).

Kurosh opens. SB calls. I call in the BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop is 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB calls, I call.

The turn is the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB checkraises, I call two...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't give your straight draw more than 3-3.5 outs, if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to show me how you came about that conclusion? I figured it was somewhere between 6 and 8.

Rob

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Reads: Kurosh is the Button. He's pretty LAGGY with his 3-handed opening standards and seems to keep betting until people tell him not to. SB is a LAG who is more passive preflop, and from what I've seen who seems destined to give as much money away as possible. He's genuinely horrible. I'm sure Kurosh knows this, as it was HU for a while before I sat (I sat because I had played with the LAG a bunch).

Kurosh opens. SB calls. I call in the BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop is 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB calls, I call.

The turn is the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB checkraises, I call two...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't give your straight draw more than 3-3.5 outs, if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to show me how you came about that conclusion? I figured it was somewhere between 6 and 8.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

One of our straight draws gives you the bottom of the 4straight on board, that needs to be severely discounted especially after a somewhat passive yet laggy guy checkraises the turn. On top of that there is a 2 flush on board discounting your fairly clean draw to the 2 and further discounting the 6.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reads: Kurosh is the Button. He's pretty LAGGY with his 3-handed opening standards and seems to keep betting until people tell him not to. SB is a LAG who is more passive preflop, and from what I've seen who seems destined to give as much money away as possible. He's genuinely horrible. I'm sure Kurosh knows this, as it was HU for a while before I sat (I sat because I had played with the LAG a bunch).

Kurosh opens. SB calls. I call in the BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

The flop is 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB calls, I call.

The turn is the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB checks, I check, Kurosh bets, SB checkraises, I call two...

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't give your straight draw more than 3-3.5 outs, if that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to show me how you came about that conclusion? I figured it was somewhere between 6 and 8.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

One of our straight draws gives you the bottom of the 4straight on board, that needs to be severely discounted especially after a somewhat passive yet laggy guy checkraises the turn. On top of that there is a 2 flush on board discounting your fairly clean draw to the 2 and further discounting the 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a 3-handed game with one person who has done nothing but autobet, I'm not sure how you discount the outs by well over 1/2 though. I do understand your thoughts but I think the discounting process is way too severe there. The LAGGY guy has been aggressive in general playing me postflop, but passive preflop (hence me sitting on his left).

Rob

Entity, your orginal thought about this being 6-8 outs is about right IMO. I would see this as about 7 pure outs, and then I would fold the turn. Your call isnt horrible though, we're talking about a fraction of a BB mistake here at most.

[kurosh]

My opening range on the button is about the top 80% of hands. Flop is an autobet. On the turn, I either have a decent draw, any made hand, sometimes k-high or if I think someone was peeling with overs or on a draw. This is the type of board I think I would probably fire out again with anything I'm raising PF with. I'm curious as to what people think of how I played it, but I don't want to spoil anything.

[elindauer]

If you're going to continue, you may as well 3-bet. Give yourself a chance to win unimproved and you may be able to make up the little bit you are losing by calling intending to fold unimproved. Who knows what chaos may ensue after your 3-bet?

good luck.
Eric

[DeathDonkey]

Any merit to check/ 3 betting here? Say Kurosh can fold an ace. Or does the SB always have a pair of queens beat here?

-DeathDonkey

[tizim]

[ QUOTE ]
My opening range on the button is about the top 80% of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you're raising the top 80% of hands OTB in all games, can you explain why you're stealing more 3-handed than, say, 5-handed? I've always been under the impression that stealing standards shouldn't change based on the number of players sitting, and I haven't heard anything compelling enough to change my mind. It's definitely true, though, that in aggressive games, players tend to begin stealing more when it gets shorter.

[Alobar]

it costs you more to play your hands because the blinds come thru so much faster, so you have to get involved in more hands

[shadow29]

I think that we have our "double-gutter" outs in addition to diamonds, if this pot were HU. I think that Kurosh, after seeing you call 2 cold on the turn, puts you on a draw. Thus, I think that we could have 9 bluff outs in addition to our straight outs. I think that 6 outs seems reasonable to assign to the straight draw.

meh. I don't really know where I'm going with this post.

[tizim]

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it costs you more to play your hands because the blinds come thru so much faster, so you have to get involved in more hands

[/ QUOTE ]

That logic doesn't make sense to me. How frequently you have to post the blinds shouldn't impact the EV of a certain hand on the button.

[Lmn55d]

but isn't your average equity in the blinds higher because you're only facing one dude on the button rather than 4 dudes in UTG, MP, CO, Button? I think I read an article by mason talking about this. If I'm not totally mistaken (and I might be...) he claimed that this offsets what you describe, at least to a degree.

[partygirluk]

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it costs you more to play your hands because the blinds come thru so much faster, so you have to get involved in more hands

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That logic doesn't make sense to me. How frequently you have to post the blinds shouldn't impact the EV of a certain hand on the button.

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The logic is false. (His, not yours).

[baronzeus]

Standard? There's really no alternatives on any street as far as I can see.

[dave44]

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it costs you more to play your hands because the blinds come thru so much faster, so you have to get involved in more hands

[/ QUOTE ]
When you pay your next blind has no influence on whether the hand you hold right now is profitable to raise or not against two people holding random cards and having posted a SB and BB. I don't buy this business of more hands becoming profitable in the exact same situation in fewer handed games at all.

[Pog0]

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When you pay your next blind has no influence on whether the hand you hold right now is profitable to raise or not against two people holding random cards and having posted a SB and BB. I don't buy this business of more hands becoming profitable in the exact same situation in fewer handed games at all.

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We just lose less in the blinds in a shorter game, right?

[Alobar]

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it costs you more to play your hands because the blinds come thru so much faster, so you have to get involved in more hands

[/ QUOTE ]
When you pay your next blind has no influence on whether the hand you hold right now is profitable to raise or not against two people holding random cards and having posted a SB and BB. I don't buy this business of more hands becoming profitable in the exact same situation in fewer handed games at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

guess I hadnt really thought about it well enough