Live 10/20

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

A generally loose and straightforward game - eight-handed.

[I haven't posted much on Stud, so bear with me as I try to create a hand history]

Seat 6 is a loose aggressive player that is sometimes tricy and a pretty good hand reader. He also calls way too often when on a draw. Seat 8 is good (but not great), tight (but not overly) and straightforward.

3rd Street
Seat 1: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif __ bring-in __ folds
Seat 2: Xx __ fold
Seat 3: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif __ raise
Seat 4: Xx __ fold
Seat 5: Xx __ fold
Seat 6: Xx __ fold
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif __ call
Seat 8: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif __ call

[I don't remember all of the other cards, but there was only one exposed heart.]

4th Street (4 SB)
Seat 3: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif _ call
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif __ bet
Seat 8: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif __ call

5th Street (3.5BB)
Seat 3: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif __call__call
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif __raise
Seat 8: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif __bet __call

Sixth Street (9.5BB)
Seat 3: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif __call
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif __bet
Seat 8: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif __call

River (12.5BB)
Seat 3: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif __call
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif __check__call
Seat 8: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif __bet

Anything wrong? How would you play it differently?

Edited to add approximate pot size (not that I considered it very much in this hand).

[Roland]

What’s the structure? What site was this?
Bet the river. What where you afraid of?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
What’s the structure? What site was this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Live -- not a site. $1 Ante, $3 Bring in.

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river. What where you afraid of?

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting question. I checked for a few reasons.

First, my gut: I had a bad feeling about the cold calling and the straightforward guy betting into my three flush earlier.

Second, this is a game of regulars and this may be a mistake -- typically in this game, if someone has a made hand and it is obvious that there are better draws out there or that they may be beat, people check with the intention of calling to save a bet.

Third, I was pretty sure they knew I had the flush. If a flush was best I was not going to get any callers. If I was beat, I was likely to face a raise. A bet behind me could be a boat or a bluff -- I was calling unless it was two bets back to me.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]

First, my gut: I had a bad feeling about the cold calling and the straightforward guy betting into my three flush earlier.

Second, this is a game of regulars and this may be a mistake -- typically in this game, if someone has a made hand and it is obvious that there are better draws out there or that they may be beat, people check with the intention of calling to save a bet.

Third, I was pretty sure they knew I had the flush. If a flush was best I was not going to get any callers. If I was beat, I was likely to face a raise. A bet behind me could be a boat or a bluff -- I was calling unless it was two bets back to me.

[/ QUOTE ]


This logic is flawed. Of course they can be pretty sure you have a flush. But they can’t see your hole cards! Anyone with an ace-high flush is going to raise you. You might not want to 3-bet (kinda hard to tell how likely a boat is without knowledge of the other up cards), but even if you get raised your hand should be good the majority of the time. What’s more, they will still call you with trips or a good two pairs probably.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

The reasoning is definitely flawed -- but checking has some meta-game benefits as well... and playing live, I get a far better feel for whether or not I am beat. In fact, If I did not have two 9s -- which looked like I had some of Seat 8's cards -- I may have folded on the river (although that is not very likely). Also, on the river, the other villain called hesitantly and told me I was in third place... I couldn't convince myself to save the bet though.

[Andy B]

Bet the river. Pay off a raise if it comes to that. They may "know" you have a flush, but they'll pay off with two pair, trips, and smaller flushes anyway. And if either of these guys raises, it could be with a flush, especially the guy who's been calling along with the clubs. He can put you on a flush, but he certainly can't put you on an AK flush.

[benwood]

It's a very common weakness to check the river when you very likely have the best hand.Like Andy & Roland said,"Bet it".

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

Bet river -- point taken... here I was in bad shape and in a distant third to two other made hands by fifth street -- quad 5s and a boat -- 4s over 6s. -- Quad 5s didn't want to scare us away. I was just making sure I wasn't making any earlier mistakes -- I was criticized by some of the old folks at the table for raising on fifth street.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet river -- point taken... here I was in bad shape and in a distant third to two other made hands by fifth street -- quad 5s and a boat -- 4s over 6s. -- Quad 5s didn't want to scare us away. I was just making sure I wasn't making any earlier mistakes -- I was criticized by some of the old folks at the table for raising on fifth street.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, you're lucky you have such terrible opponents. You would've lost a lot more than you did if they were competent.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
The reasoning is definitely flawed -- but checking has some meta-game benefits as well... and playing live, I get a far better feel for whether or not I am beat. In fact, If I did not have two 9s -- which looked like I had some of Seat 8's cards -- I may have folded on the river (although that is not very likely). Also, on the river, the other villain called hesitantly and told me I was in third place... I couldn't convince myself to save the bet though.

[/ QUOTE ]

very results oriented, you shouldn't be able to put your opponents on quads and a boat based on the boards/action of this hand. bet this river every time.

So he has the AK flush, as well as aces and nines, and one of the kings, and he is actually considering tossing it to a single bet on the end from the guy with exposed fives. I simply do not believe it. Even without the nines im not tossing this hand. Bet the river, why check? The other player is not a worry, he is far behind you for sure, he has just flat called so he doesnt have a house, he is almost certainly way behind you. Your play just really confuses me.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
he is actually considering tossing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is considering tossing anything? There is no way I am not calling this on the river.

There are two issues as I see it: (1) Do I raise fifth street and (2) Do I bet out on the river.

I am happy with the way I played it -- I saved a bet on the end with what might look like a weak play -- but I am not so sure I play it differently next time.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
very results oriented, you shouldn't be able to put your opponents on quads and a boat based on the boards/action of this hand. bet this river every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is resulted oriented? I certainly don't put them both on made hands -- its whether I put at least one of them on a better made hand.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
very results oriented, you shouldn't be able to put your opponents on quads and a boat based on the boards/action of this hand. bet this river every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is resulted oriented? I certainly don't put them both on made hands -- its whether I put at least one of them on a better made hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you made a mistake by not betting this river, but you justify the mistake by the results of the hand (coming 3rd best).