Do we limp low PP (22-55) UTG?

-ev? +ev?
thx

I would say yes in 6 max because of the huge implied odds. I don't know about full ring.

i would say it depends on the table.

I limp these UTG at 6max if the table is relatively passive preflop - lots of multiway limped pots, a decent amount of the stupid preflop minraise, etc. These tables will let you see a flop cheaply and pay you off royally enough of the time to make it well worth it. Can't say I do this at higher limit tables, aggressive tables, tight tables, or full tables.

[ticks]

I openraise with lots of hands UTG, 54s for example.
Why should I make this relatively small exception to the rule?
I am able to outplay most of my opponents postflop anyways.
Usually people fold to a c-bet.
And when I hit my hand is well disguised.

Edit: I play low limits, mind. 6-max.

[dbitel]

I play full ring at Full tilt, and i limp 22-JJ UTG

The reason i think it is +EV to limp the 22-55 UTG, is....If it is limped round, you obviously have value to hit your set. If some1 standard raises to $4, you call and hit your set...the players at this level will pay you off with their entire stack with TPTK or an overpair, so i still think you have set value

I play full ring 25 to 200NL and I limp 22-TT utg. The site I play most of my games at the tables are very passive and 90% of the players will only minraise or raise 4xbb max regardless of number of limpers so I always get odds to draw to a set.

[beavens]

6max 25NL mainly for me.. i'll limp 22-88 UTG usually. depends on the table and how i've been playing

Hell yea I limp em. Theres always several people at the tables I frequent that live by the slogan "Top pair = Not going ANYWHERE".

[ticks]

But can anyone explain why they wont OPENRAISE in 6-max with 22-55?
With small pairs we are looking for a set,
and 222 is almost always equal to 777.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
But can anyone explain why they wont OPENRAISE in 6-max with 22-55?
With small pairs we are looking for a set,
and 222 is almost always equal to 777.

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utg?

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But can anyone explain why they wont OPENRAISE in 6-max with 22-55?
With small pairs we are looking for a set,
and 222 is almost always equal to 777.

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utg?

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Yes. If you are willing to LIMP with 22 utg, why not just go ahead and raise?
Granted, you could get to see some cheap multiway flops.
But, IMHO, your chance to win many small pots (and a few big ones) is greatly increased if you show some strength from the start.
Why am I wrong?

Edit: I am talking 6-max here

[Hoopster81]

[ QUOTE ]
Why am I wrong?

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Because you are going to be playing a raised pot, out of position, with 3 guaranteed overcards on the flop. 6-max, I will usually raise 77+ (sometimes 66) and limp 22-55 UTG.

[NoOuts12]

For a while I was raising these hands as well as small suited connectors in just about every spot, for the reasons you outlined-- taking it down with a c-bet, or getting action once i've hit. However, i've since rethought this and am now limping the small pocket pairs... here's my rationale

- avoids getting re-raised. I play full tilt and there are a fair amount of people who play with some aggression preflop, and nobody likes getting their 22 reraised the pot OOP.
- as far as disguising your hand goes, at low limits I really think the limp is +EV. When you raise the pot preflop, you're showing aggression. The c-bet with trips is going to fold out a lot of hands that, say you limped and they were the initial raiser, would have felt obliged to bet into you. I really feel like more action is generated when you limp, as a combination of keeping more people in the pot and letting someone else take the lead. I really believe that the amount you take from c-bets is near irrelevant-- where i'm looking to make my money with these hands is stacking people. Also, the continuation bet isn't nearly as good a strategy against multiple opponents with these hands in that it is almost a pure bluff-- you're drawing to only two cards vs. most c-bets with overs, etc you're more legitimately drawing to improve your hand.

thoughts?

[NoOuts12]

anyone with a response?

[ QUOTE ]
For a while I was raising these hands as well as small suited connectors in just about every spot, for the reasons you outlined-- taking it down with a c-bet, or getting action once i've hit. However, i've since rethought this and am now limping the small pocket pairs... here's my rationale

- avoids getting re-raised. I play full tilt and there are a fair amount of people who play with some aggression preflop, and nobody likes getting their 22 reraised the pot OOP.
- as far as disguising your hand goes, at low limits I really think the limp is +EV. When you raise the pot preflop, you're showing aggression. The c-bet with trips is going to fold out a lot of hands that, say you limped and they were the initial raiser, would have felt obliged to bet into you. I really feel like more action is generated when you limp, as a combination of keeping more people in the pot and letting someone else take the lead. I really believe that the amount you take from c-bets is near irrelevant-- where i'm looking to make my money with these hands is stacking people. Also, the continuation bet isn't nearly as good a strategy against multiple opponents with these hands in that it is almost a pure bluff-- you're drawing to only two cards vs. most c-bets with overs, etc you're more legitimately drawing to improve your hand.

thoughts?

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right on

[Fallen Hero]

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- avoids getting re-raised. I play full tilt and there are a fair amount of people who play with some aggression preflop, and nobody likes getting their 22 reraised the pot OOP.


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I love it, means if it hit my set I'll definetly get paid off, sort of limping-calling a raise with it, except the pot is bigger (btw: most people suck at reraising pf, they usually raise much smaller than they should)

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- as far as disguising your hand goes, at low limits I really think the limp is +EV. When you raise the pot preflop, you're showing aggression. The c-bet with trips is going to fold out a lot of hands that, say you limped and they were the initial raiser, would have felt obliged to bet into you. I really feel like more action is generated when you limp, as a combination of keeping more people in the pot and letting someone else take the lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

generally, hands that fold because you were the pf raiser would not have paid you off if it was a limped pot

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I really believe that the amount you take from c-bets is near irrelevant-- where i'm looking to make my money with these hands is stacking people.


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the amount of money made from raising pf and making a continuation bet is probably the most underrated way of making money in ssnl.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the continuation bet isn't nearly as good a strategy against multiple opponents with these hands in that it is almost a pure bluff-- you're drawing to only two cards vs. most c-bets with overs, etc you're more legitimately drawing to improve your hand.


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That's right, but if the table doesn't allow me to play like this I'll change. Since we're talking about defaults here I think in the normal 6max table my raise pf will only be called in one spot, sometimes two, so I'll open raise any pair from any position.

This is a matter of opinion of course, this I how I do it, doesn't mean I think it's the absolute "right thing to do" for everyone.

[teamdonkey]

blah blah implied odds blah blah hit set take stack blah

the simple fact is these hands are only marginally profitable. They will only rarely win you pots at showdown unimproved, and will always be on the losing end of set-over-set situations. Over 60,000 hands i show a whopping +0.14BB/hand with this group, while 66-99 is +0.57BB/hand. I treat these like suited connectors and play them with position.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
blah blah implied odds blah blah hit set take stack blah

the simple fact is these hands are only marginally profitable. They will only rarely win you pots at showdown unimproved, and will always be on the losing end of set-over-set situations. Over 60,000 hands i show a whopping +0.14BB/hand with this group, while 66-99 is +0.57BB/hand. I treat these like suited connectors and play them with position.

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I show a lot more proffit from mine if that's usefull at all

[teamdonkey]

if you're suggesting i'd do better with them if i played them more aggressively, you could be right. I just know as a group i make about twice as much per hand with A2s-A9s.

[djoyce003]

I play 6 max granted and I limp them always unless first in on the button, which I raise. I average over 1bb/hand with these. I think you are having issues getting paid off I guess, or you are playing full ring which is a little different to begin with.

In a 6 max I'll limp them. If it's a full ring I'll muck 2-2, 4-4, call with 5-5 to 8-8 and raise the rest of the pairs.

I think that when playing small pocket pairs UTG *edit* in a shorthanded setting - raising > calling > folding .

[Maulik]

Do we limp low PP (22-55) UTG?

yes

[Isura]

pocket pairs rule!

[teamdonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 6 max granted and I limp them always unless first in on the button, which I raise. I average over 1bb/hand with these. I think you are having issues getting paid off I guess, or you are playing full ring which is a little different to begin with.

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no offense, but i have exactly 10 hands that i'm making more than 1BB/hand with. If you're making more than that with 22-55 you're either getting very lucky with those or your overall win rate is > 30BB/100.

[EMcWilliams]

Eh, I limp with the small pocket pairs, a set is a set which is often a winner. 33 is a loser for me, but thats a variance issue: a limped AA hit set over set twice on me for my stack, and some over set over set fun. Ill raise with these occusionally If Im feeling frisky or feel that my continuation bets are working well.

[GivenToFly]

in 6max..i open raise any pp.. and low pps are easy to play on the flop.. usually you'll take the blinds or end of hu..and you'll take the pot on the flop a bunch.. or hit big.. or easy fold.. plus lag image is +ev =)