PDA

View Full Version : Blinds...Help!


Snarf
12-22-2005, 06:57 PM
So this would be an somewhat easy hand to play against a limper...but I got a little lost since I was against the big blind.

I'm sure I misplayed it. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1389)
Button (t2120)
Hero (t6208)
BB (t3180)
UTG (t2103)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t750</font>, BB calls t450.

Turn: (t1800) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t450</font>, Hero calls t450.

River: (t2700) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t600</font>, Hero calls t600.

Final Pot: t3900

bluef0x
12-22-2005, 06:59 PM
Why are you playing so passive? Lead the turn with a pot sized raise... if he reraises, push.

12-22-2005, 07:02 PM
With flush and straight draws, I would raise the turn. But, if you didn't and he raised, I would have reraised at that point.

rbear
12-22-2005, 07:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing so passive? Lead the turn with a pot sized raise... if he reraises, push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise more on this flop too. Punish those draws. Most likely 1k or so.

pineapple888
12-22-2005, 07:06 PM
If you're going to check-raise the flop, you have to make a much larger bet, at least 1000.

As played, you're giving him odds to draw to an OESD, for example.

And look what falls on the turn. So now you don't know where you are, and you're stuck calling his value bets, or possibly folding the best hand.

Snarf
12-22-2005, 07:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to check-raise the flop, you have to make a much larger bet, at least 1000.

As played, you're giving him odds to draw to an OESD, for example.

And look what falls on the turn. So now you don't know where you are, and you're stuck calling his value bets, or possibly folding the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually handle my small blind vs. big blind spots half-way well...but this one got messy...

You're dead on about what you said...

but doesn't this seem like a hand that would occur about 1% of the time? I have Q9 and flop top two - and the big blind...does he REALLY have 10 J?

I priced him in on purpose actually 'cuz I thought the odds that I'd get paid off by ANY Queen (and quite possibly any 9 - the guy was an uber-fish) were too great to bet him out of the flop...

then the turn...then the river...

I regretted the flop soft-play for sure.

pineapple888
12-22-2005, 07:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to check-raise the flop, you have to make a much larger bet, at least 1000.

As played, you're giving him odds to draw to an OESD, for example.

And look what falls on the turn. So now you don't know where you are, and you're stuck calling his value bets, or possibly folding the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually handle my small blind vs. big blind spots half-way well...but this one got messy...

You're dead on about what you said...

but doesn't this seem like a hand that would occur about 1% of the time? I have Q9 and flop top two - and the big blind...does he REALLY have 10 J?

I priced him in on purpose actually 'cuz I thought the odds that I'd get paid off by ANY Queen (and quite possibly any 9 - the guy was an uber-fish) were too great to bet him out of the flop...

then the turn...then the river...

I regretted the flop soft-play for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been said before: "The hand that CAN beat you WILL beat you."

Of course, you don't want to always be seeing "Monsters under the bed", but the more poker you play, the more you'll realize that it usually pays to play your strong hands fast, unless you have an absolute monster, which you don't here. There are just too many ways 7 cards can beat you.

I mean, I might occasionally play top 2-pair slow, but it's not my default. I'd have to have a reason for it.

Snarf
12-22-2005, 08:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's been said before: "The hand that CAN beat you WILL beat you."

Of course, you don't want to always be seeing "Monsters under the bed", but the more poker you play, the more you'll realize that it usually pays to play your strong hands fast, unless you have an absolute monster, which you don't here. There are just too many ways 7 cards can beat you.

I mean, I might occasionally play top 2-pair slow, but it's not my default. I'd have to have a reason for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...not the best flop for 'slow' playing...

I don't see those pesky monsters under the bed...I easily intentionally ignore them...but they sure felt present in this hand...

I guess this is one of the classic 'win small lose big hands' ...?

bluef0x
12-22-2005, 08:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's been said before: "The hand that CAN beat you WILL beat you."

Of course, you don't want to always be seeing "Monsters under the bed", but the more poker you play, the more you'll realize that it usually pays to play your strong hands fast, unless you have an absolute monster, which you don't here. There are just too many ways 7 cards can beat you.

I mean, I might occasionally play top 2-pair slow, but it's not my default. I'd have to have a reason for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...not the best flop for 'slow' playing...

I don't see those pesky monsters under the bed...I easily intentionally ignore them...but they sure felt present in this hand...

I guess this is one of the classic 'win small lose big hands' ...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Play it more aggressively and it's win small, win big... and lose to a donk 10% of the time when he sucks out.

Snarf
12-22-2005, 08:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Play it more aggressively and it's win small, win big... and lose to a donk 10% of the time when he sucks out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree I didn't play the hand aggressively enough...
but for sake of discussion...

If I check-raise to ...ooh...1250 or if I lead out for say 500ish...

Aren't I just telling weak Queens and any 9 to rightly fold? Playing it the way I did...I fully expected to get paid off by any Queen and most 9s from this particular fish.

Now maybe THIS time there WAS a monster under the bed... but shouldn't I be more concerned with the higher percentage of the time I can really take the villain for a ride than with the lower percentage of the time the villain holds one of those draws - in his 2 random card big blind?

(More often than not there is no monster under that bed!)

I'm still missing some philosophical piece of the puzzle here...(as to the reasoning of playing the hand aggro like against the big blind....)

What hands pay me off if I do?

Though the aggro would have the benefit of making it "incorrect" for draws to call...and the comfort of knowing that I at least got my money in good...

pineapple888
12-22-2005, 08:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Play it more aggressively and it's win small, win big... and lose to a donk 10% of the time when he sucks out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree I didn't play the hand aggressively enough...
but for sake of discussion...

If I check-raise to ...ooh...1250 or if I lead out for say 500ish...

Aren't I just telling weak Queens and any 9 to rightly fold? Playing it the way I did...I fully expected to get paid off by any Queen and most 9s from this particular fish.

Now maybe THIS time there WAS a monster under the bed... but shouldn't I be more concerned with the higher percentage of the time I can really take the villain for a ride than with the lower percentage of the time the villain holds one of those draws - in his 2 random card big blind?

(More often than not there is no monster under that bed!)

I'm still missing some philosophical piece of the puzzle here...(as to the reasoning of playing the hand aggro like against the big blind....)

What hands pay me off if I do?

Though the aggro would have the benefit of making it "incorrect" for draws to call...and the comfort of knowing that I at least got my money in good...

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, the donks will come along anyway, because they don't understand pot odds.

If you fold out a good player, you're still happy, because you've won a nice pot, and he wasn't going to invest any more chips anyway unless he hit his draw.

So it's good either way.

Also, note JT isn't the only MUTB here, any broadway card falls and you have to be worried about a higher two pair.

Snarf
12-22-2005, 08:47 PM
While I *know* you guys are right...I still have ticks in my head about playing this aggro-like...

Upon further reflection...I think my FPS is kicking in.

You guys are of course right.

Thanks for walking me through it.


(...more discussion welcome though...)



Incidentally...What do you think of the turn/river play after my flop mis-play?

I shoulda block-bet the river?

pineapple888
12-22-2005, 09:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally...What do you think of the turn/river play after my flop mis-play?

I shoulda block-bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, you can argue for a turn bet or check/raise and hope for the best.

I don't like a blocking bet on the river because I don't think he's going anywhere and it just gets me even more pot-committed if he value-raises.

So if I got in that spot, I guess I would play it like you did. Just try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.