Curtains hand #2

[rbear]

Level:3
Blinds(25/50) - Wednesday, December 21, 18:03:32 EDT 2005
Table Table 66679 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: ( $900 )
Seat 2: ( $1930 )
Seat 3: curtainz ( $895 )
Seat 4: BB ( $2180 )
Seat 5: ( $615 )
Seat 7: ( $1465 )
Seat 8: ( $945 )
Seat 10: ( $1070 )
Trny:18480862 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ 6d 6s ]
6 folds
curtainz raises [125].
>You have options at Table 68279 Table!.
>You have options at Table 68777 Table!.
>You have options at Table 67358 Table!.
FezioJnr is all-In [2130]
curtainz???????

Villian has been EXTREMELY LAG, but even the LAGiest of players get cards sometimes. It seems you'd be on the better side of a coin flip or dominated way more than you'd be in a dominating position. Who calls, who folds?

what seat is curtains?

[rbear]

sorry SB

[microbet]

Folds. I certainly wouldn't raise to 125 from SB (he is in SB, right?) with 66 with the intention of calling a push. Sometimes I make a raise from an earlier position and the person who reraises is LAGGY enough that I decide to call, but here BB was the only one left to act.

[Newt_Buggs]

fold

[pineapple888]

Laggy villain could have literally anything here. With the dead chips in the middle, I call.

Well, I agree, not the best raise. However, now that it is done. I would probably call.
1) Pot odds are decent
2) He is +EV to any high cards.
3) BB could be bullying with Ax (where x is < 6)

Once this raise was made, I think the call needs to be made. If he ran into a higher pair, well then that raise wasn't the best.

[Mr_Oog]

I cannot see putting 125 into the pot vs an uber-lag intending to fold to a push. This seems very bad to me.

So, since we decided to raise I have to think we are calling this push.

Having not seen the play up to this point I cannot say if I would have made the choice to raise initially or not, but we have to expect we will be playing for our stack a high percentage of the time if we raise into an uber lag in a blind confrontation.

-Mike

Assumptions: Uber lag means he will push overbet with any 2 in this position a high perentage of the time. So I expect to be + side of a coinflip ~ 80% of the time (note a portion of his bluffs fall into this category), and dominating more often than dominated.

[rbear]

Since the dead chips in the middle have alot to do with most responses, how would most people play a low pair like this? Complete, 3x, 125, or bait the push here? Reasons?

I actually think that this played out well.. I would play it the same.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Since the dead chips in the middle have alot to do with most responses, how would most people play a low pair like this? Complete, 3x, 125, or bait the push here? Reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like curtains's line for meta-game reasons (as long as he called the push). It tells everyone "respect my raises, cause I just might call your push." So now you can take down future pots with much less risk.

Everyone's so eager to just push in all the time here, but that can cost you later against observant opponents (as you would hope they are at the 215s).

[Mr_Oog]

Well, the only thing I really don't want to have happen is for him to flat call, so I think limping is a bad idea.

I like the 125 or 3x bet (I don't see a huge difference between the two values here) to induce a push or fold play. The bet is small enough the LAG might believe he has FE.

-Mike

Note: Part of my repsponse here is the fact that I hate having a big stack LAG on my left. If I can take a chunk of chips specifically from this opponent I will be in much better shape for this tourney.

I don't have a comment about the actual hand, but I was wondering where all these posts come from? I've seen a lot of Curtain's hand posts but I must have missed how they started. Can someone fill me in?

[Mr_Oog]

Curtains made a post stating he wanted to send HH's out and have people pick and post hands from them. Understandably many people quickly responded they wanted to do this.

-Mike

[curtains]

I think folding is terrible btw. You can't fold 66 PF with only 18x the BB in a headsup blind battle. It's possible I should raise larger to begin with, such as 250 or so, because Im not all that interested in encouraging him to reraise with KQ (Although I am interesting in him reraising with A5s and such)....and that my original raise to 125 was a mistake. But raising to 125 and folding is just terrible here.

[Newt_Buggs]

Wow, I'm out of it. I orginally thought that this was level two and didn't see the comment that the villain was an extreme lag. Against a LAG I think that this is a fairly straightforward call, but I think that many other opponents will only push here with a hand range that crushes 66.

[curtains]

Even if its not a LAG, you cant make a plan that involves folding 66 headsup with 18x the BB. Do you realize the K+S number for 66 is something like 57x the BB. You must play this hand in a fashion that doesn't allow you to fold no matter what, and I believe this is true against all opponents.

You just dont know when someone is going to get fancy with QTs, A5s, 44 etc etc

[Newt_Buggs]

I was just being stupid and thinking that sometimes I would lay it down with these stacks in level two. In the actual hand I agree that you shouldn't be laying down 66 with 18bb.

You should get on AIM more often

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you realize the K+S number for 66 is something like 57x the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

WooT?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since the dead chips in the middle have alot to do with most responses, how would most people play a low pair like this? Complete, 3x, 125, or bait the push here? Reasons?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like curtains's line for meta-game reasons (as long as he called the push). It tells everyone "respect my raises, cause I just might call your push." So now you can take down future pots with much less risk.

Everyone's so eager to just push in all the time here, but that can cost you later against observant opponents (as you would hope they are at the 215s).

[/ QUOTE ]

A larger more pot committing raise is fine too, in any case I decided before raising that I was almost surely calling an allin. In retrospect I do prefer a raise of 175-200 against this guy, as I dont want it to be too easy for him to just call preflop.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if its not a LAG, you cant make a plan that involves folding 66 headsup with 18x the BB. Do you realize the K+S number for 66 is something like 57x the BB. You must play this hand in a fashion that doesn't allow you to fold no matter what, and I believe this is true against all opponents.

You just dont know when someone is going to get fancy with QTs, A5s, 44 etc etc

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I disagree with your thinking here Curtains. The K&S number just shows that it is more profitable to push than to open fold here. But it says nothing about when you are played back at like you were. You need to re-evaluate after it gets back to you. Against certain opponents, a fold here to the push would surely be correct.

[curtains]

The K+S number is just too high compared to the money in play and most people's ranges will be too loose in a headsup battle like this. Im not saying that there arent a select number of people in which folding may be correct, but they are pretty rare IMO.

[curtains]

Simply put, raising to 125 with the idea of folding to an allin, is too absurd for me to fathom in this spot.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

The K+S number is just too high compared to the money in play and most people's ranges will be too loose in a headsup battle like this. Im not saying that there arent a select number of people in which folding may be correct, but they are pretty rare IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Just be careful using terms like 'all' 'always' or 'never' around me. I'm a philosophy major.

[curtains]

btw how often does 66 win against a range like A7+, 77+ and KJ+? Someone tell me, Im curious

[microbet]

You already said this, but it's a little burried now; I think it is better to make the initial raise bigger.

edit: nmind, you said the same again to pineapple.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
btw how often does 66 win against a range like A7+, 77+ and KJ+? Someone tell me, Im curious

[/ QUOTE ]

45.36%

[curtains]

so how can you possibly fold against almost anyone with the chips already in the pot? This is a reasonably tight range too IMO.

[Mr_J]

I like raising to 200. You are most likely in front, so it charges him. If he pushes back it's an easy call, and it also gives a good pot for pushing the flop.

Would he automatically bet that flop if he didn't hit?? Would he call a flop push when you are ahead?? Is this guy truly a total moron??

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
so how can you possibly fold against almost anyone with the chips already in the pot? This is a reasonably tight range too IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Words like that are fine. I agree.

I'm just saying, there exist players who won't reraise without TT+ there. Going into the hand knowing you will not fold against someone like that is a bad plan.

[curtains]

I hear ya, I bet I would fold against some rare birds.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if its not a LAG, you cant make a plan that involves folding 66 headsup with 18x the BB. Do you realize the K+S number for 66 is something like 57x the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]
What's a K+S number?

[ilya]

I'd call against a LAG....it's +CEV, plus if you fold he'll either give his chips away to better players or get a huge stack and put you in a horrible situation for stealing blinds.

[rvg72]

[ QUOTE ]
so how can you possibly fold against almost anyone with the chips already in the pot? This is a reasonably tight range too IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands are great - learning a lot from them.

Question though, if you were going to call an all-in raise by the LAG BB with your 66 then why not go all-in yourself first? That way you avoid this situation and if he happens to have a better pocket pair then you are still in the same boat as you would have been anyways and you get him to fold most of the "coin flip" hands that you don't really want to mess with at this point.

Is it because you think that an all-in bet might make stealing more difficult later on?

rvg

[curtains]

rvg I said that I should raise more preflop. I don't like the raise to 125 really. I prefer 175-200. I don't like to move allin for 18x the BB, although it is reasonable. Fact of the matter is Im not folding this against this opponent no matter what preflop. btw note that by raising less I also get him to move allin with "non coin flip" hands such as 55, A4s 44, etc....this opponent would likely do so as well.

Anyway its close, I dont have a problem with allin really, but I don't have a problem with 175 either. I basically never move allin here for 18x the BB, and it kind of telegraphs my future raises if I start doing so.