Pot Odds are killing me in Party Tournaments

Simple example, that is happening left and right in the 40k on PartyPoker. This is an example I made up but it's literally straight from about 20 hand histories I have. The time of the tournament will be semi-early. I'll be at 945 chips out of 1000 starting chips. I'll get 78 offsuit in the BB with blinds at 10/20. UTG+2 will minraise to 40. Cutoff calls. Button calls. SB Calls. It's back to me to call 20 into a 180 chip pot. Harrington says to call any two here, right? I'm getting 9:1 correct?

Okay. I call. Pot at 200.

Flop: 5 6 A rainbow.


SB checks. I check. UTG+2 bets 40. (Pot 240) Cutoff calls. (Pot 280) Button raises to 40 more to 80. (Pot 360) I call the 80 thinking UTG+2 isn't the type of player to repop and I'm getting 4.5:1 with a lot of implied odds. He just calls the 40 more (Pot 400), probably with a marginal hand. Cutoff calls as well. (Pot 440).

Turn: Q.

I check. UTG+2 checks. Cutoff checks. Button bets 80 again (Pot 510). I call 80 into a 510 pot. UTG+2 and Cutoff finally fold.

River: 7

UTG+2 bets 80 again. Now I know I'm beat and I fold.

Is this an inescapable situation? Should I re-raise in these situations, even though I know I'm drawing to 8 outs?

The last 10 tournaments I've entered I've lost a good deal of chips in an early level in the BB because of a donk minraise where I flop a hand that can rake in a lot of chips. Is this a fold preflop? I really, really struggle with this. If I get lucky and hit I can win a nice sized pot. But I end up calling all the way down getting unbelievable odds.

I've lost 260 chips in the early portion of a tournament because of a simple manuever by UTG+2 to raise it 2x the BB.

Is this just a simple case of poker. Do I have a huge leak here that I need to wake up to before I start playing tournaments again on Janurary 2nd? Help, help??

I'm sure a lot of people say that smart player will ditch their hand on the flop minraise to 80. But at one point do you give up implied odds when you know the guy who bet the 40 is a weak/passive player that will NOT in most circumstances re-raise the 40 more to something like 200.

if every play you made was +EV given the pot odds you were offered, then you didn't make any mistakes. EV is the only consideration you should have early in the tournament.
for every two times you drop 260 chips early, there will be a time where you may more than double your stack.

[Mez]

I'd agree that I might ditch after the min raise, but I must be missing the issue here - you're getting a great price to call the turn.

I know its early, but I prefer to play more aggressively, if you're heads up on the turn - his bet is really weak, especially for a guy who limped - why not raise the turn and decide what to do if called on the river.

The thing with this guy's bet and it always happens is that he's got something like A10 or AJ probably and isn't sure if I'm drawing, dominating him with AK, or AQ, or trapping him with a set of 5s or 6s. Yet, if I re-raise him or push he'll still call and hope. So whenever I semi-bluff re-raise a guy with top pair/weak kicker they still call.

Be really happen when people bet small into you and you're drawing. Sure, you miss frequently, but you make way more when you hit than you lose when you miss.

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Be really happen when people bet small into you and you're drawing. Sure, you miss frequently, but you make way more when you hit than you lose when you miss.

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So you stay with the hand when the UTG+2 bets 40 on the flop and the button minraises to 80. It's right to not get aggressive in this spot because odds are one of them, or both, has an ace that they aren't good enough to get away from.

[bmxreed36]

To win this tournament, you need to accumulate over 2 million chips. You need to take every +EV opportunity you can get. Sure you won't hit your draws most of the time but the times that you may be the times when you get a big stack and go far.

[BitterChris]

This might just be me being bitter, but I tend to find that draws miss when you play them, and hit when you fold them

[ansky451]

Did you really make a post with this title?

You're going to miss this draw 4 out of 5 times that you go chase it. But if they're going to price you in then you should be chasing. Think if the river made your straight and you got a nice check raise in and picked up a t800+ chip pot because some donk gave you 6:1 odds on a straight draw.

But, yes, it is frustrating since you will miss your draw here most of the time.

Calling the min-raise to t80 might be a small leak since the orginal raiser could reraise, but if you have a strong feeling he won't or if you've never seen him 3 bet it then yes you should be making the call.

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Did you really make a post with this title?

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This adds a lot. Yeah, I did. You can PM me info on being a better poster if you want to take the time.

[IMTheWalrus8]

With all due respect, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. It sounds like you're running bad and/or having negative expectations when you're playing tournaments.

Instead of looking at the total loss of chips, look at the individual decisions you made in the hand. If each decision makes sense given all the information you had at the time, you made the correct move. It's irrelevant that you lost 260 chips in this example - your play makes money in the long run.

Now there's also the issue of your line on this kind of hand, which is related. You can lead the flop. You could reraise all-in on the flop. You could call the flop and lead out the turn. And you could bluff the river. You have to mix up how you play your draws, especially when you have a good read on someone.

For example, I love leading the flop with a flush draw because it's difficult for villains to put me on a draw, and if they're strong enough to call the bet, they're usually going to stick around if I hit my flush. And you can throw out a blocking bet on the turn if you miss, or bet more if you think he'll fold.

And in your example, you could also fold preflop, which might be a good idea for now. Yes you have odds, but you're not going to lose much (if anything) if you fold in these situations. And if you don't like those types of decision at the moment, you can tighten up until you're feeling a little more confident. Personally, I'd fold pf, and if I got there, I'd drop it after the flop reraise.

One more thing - if you're playing a lot of tournaments, you're going to face a lot of +EV situations where you're a dog to win the hand. It's counterintuitive, but you have to just go for it.

gl

[ajmargarine]

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With all due respect, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. ...

It's irrelevant that you lost 260 chips in this example - your play makes money in the long run.


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This will make you money long term in a cash game, that's for sure. But, you guys are kind of missing the boat as to what OP is saying here. I think his question is--Is it worth risking 1/4 of my stack to chase a draw when I have correct pot odds early in a tourney, before I've built any stack at all.

If OP had 2k in chips, it is easy to continue in +EV'ville. With 945, and it costing you 1/4 of them to chase and connect on something you only connect on 1/5th of the time, I'm not so sure. Accumulating chips is more important than following a selected path just because it has a small positive EV.

[ansky451]

It has nothing to do with being a better poster, its the unbeleivable contradiction in poker terms. I mean, its like saying "God these +EV decisions are really hurting my EV."

[yvesaint]

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Did you really make a post with this title?

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This adds a lot. Yeah, I did. You can PM me info on being a better poster if you want to take the time.

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well its because your title is the answer ....youre being results oriented. the odds dictate that calling there is a very +EV decision. so what, you get short stacked a few times because your chasing draws for cheap early on. but youre still seeing results, not whether or not youre making the optimal decision for each hand in relationship to the tournament as a whole.