$22: hand w/ post flop play

[45suited]

2nd hand of a PP $22. Two players busted on hand one. Folded to me on the button with TJs. Comment on all streets welcome, I know that I'll hear about the pre-flop limp. All three options crossed my mind. My thinking on limping was that I have a decent hand, one that I can raise with, but I can also just keep the pot small and play position. Sometimes I would raise here, I almost never open limp like this, but I didn't think that it was a complete donkey play at the time (though it may well be). (I know that others will say to just fold here on level one.)

I'll post results later, but I think the hand is somewhat interesting.

Seat 1: SNT51 ( $800 )
Seat 2: Atlashrug ( $800 )
Seat 4: drewdawggg ( $2475 )
Seat 8: busdecks ( $725 )
Seat 10: MarinerDaddy ( $800 )
Seat 5: BOCTOK_RU ( $800 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $800 )
Seat 3: bliztkrieg ( $800 )

Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Jd Td ]
SNT51 folds.
Atlashrug folds.
bliztkrieg folds.
drewdawggg folds.
BOCTOK_RU folds.
HERO calls [15].
busdecks calls [5].
MarinerDaddy checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Jc, 8s ]
busdecks checks.
MarinerDaddy checks.
HERO bets [40].
busdecks calls [40].
MarinerDaddy calls [40].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
busdecks checks.
MarinerDaddy checks.
HERO bets [125].
busdecks raises [250].
MarinerDaddy calls [250].
HERO folds.

[pineapple888]

Pre-flop and flop action look fine.

I don't like the turn bet because I've already been flat-called by two villains on the flop, and the turn card gave me a straight draw but may have made somebody else a straight or two pair. I just take a free card there and hope to check it down if I miss.

[gumpzilla]

Everything is fine until the turn. Check behind on that turn. Your holding is still kind of mediocre, and if you're going to bet and fold you're missing out on the value the OESD you just picked up offers. (PS - call that turn minraise. You're getting the odds to draw to the straight, particularly since there's a lot of interest here. You'll be up against another JT surprisingly often, I think, but you still have good value here) Take the card, and if you don't make the straight, make your river decision based on the action ahead of you. The decision will be calling or folding, as your middling hand is not one you should be raising with here. Checking behind if there's no bet and you didn't make a straight is a no-brainer here, in my opinion.

[bluef0x]

I personally don't play JTs, but if I did I would want it to be in more of a multi-way pot where I can go for the straight/twopair/flush and if I miss I can let go of it cheaply...

Here you showed you had something on the flop and got two callers. The fact that they both called is kinda iffy but you only bet 40 chips and donks will stick around with nothing for that much. I'd make another bet on the turn maybe 60% of the time, the other 40% take another card. Not a horrible play, but this is why I prefer JTs in a bigger multi-way pot where I can throw away top pair easily.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything is fine until the turn. Check behind on that turn. Your holding is still kind of mediocre, and if you're going to bet and fold you're missing out on the value the OESD you just picked up offers. (PS - call that turn minraise. You're getting the odds to draw to the straight, particularly since there's a lot of interest here. You'll be up against another JT surprisingly often, I think, but you still have good value here) Take the card, and if you don't make the straight, make your river decision based on the action ahead of you. The decision will be calling or folding, as your middling hand is not one you should be raising with here. Checking behind if there's no bet and you didn't make a straight is a no-brainer here, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the thing is, if I was playing a 55 (I've only played a few of them), I'd be more likely to check behind on the turn. But at a 22, my thinking (obviously it could be flawed) is that value betting is king. The flop bet was only 40, so these guys could be calling me with just overs, you know?

If the pot had been heads-up, betting would be fine, but since I had two callers, I guess it was wrong.

As for not calling the mini-raise, well, again, it's a lower limit thing. Mini-raise followed by flat call told me that someone had a monster and wanted to suck me in. If I'm up against TQ, I'm drawing for a split.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]

But at a 22, my thinking (obviously it could be flawed) is that value betting is king.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but you can't be at all confident that you are ahead here.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But at a 22, my thinking (obviously it could be flawed) is that value betting is king.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but you can't be at all confident that you are ahead here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't really, but the guys on the 22s are pretty predictable. You don't think that LOTS of times I'm getting called on the flop by bottom pair, middle pair, two suited cards, an ace, etc etc etc...

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that against guys who are typically calling stations (since I don't know these guys, but it's a 22, I'm putting them into that category), I figured that my bet could either be a value bet with the best hand or it would be big enough to get them off whatever crap they possibly called with on the flop.

Now, when the action went mini-raise, call, I had my answer.

(Again, I'm not saying my line was correct, just giving my thinking.)

I'd raise pf. It has a good chance of folding out SB, and let's me take control of the pot (if that's even a good thing).

Other than that I'd play the hand the exact same way...but I have a -roi @ the $22s so what do I know. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[xJMPx]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop and flop action look fine.

I don't like the turn bet because I've already been flat-called by two villains on the flop, and the turn card gave me a straight draw but may have made somebody else a straight or two pair. I just take a free card there and hope to check it down if I miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that against guys who are typically calling stations (since I don't know these guys, but it's a 22, I'm putting them into that category.)

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I think this kind of thinking is a pretty big leak, one that I had to get away from myself when I had to step down from the 215s to the lower buy-ins.

The players at the 22s are bad, but they are bad in different ways. For example, many of them love to trap when they should be betting.

You still should be pretty sure you have the best hand to make a value bet, and I don't think you can be here.

My two cents, anyway.

[45suited]

Okay, so the consenus seems to be that my pre-flop limp and flop bet were okay, but my turn bet sucked. My thinking was that on a 22, I'm getting called on the flop by middle pair, bottom pair, overs, a flush draw, etc enough that I would bet the scare card anyway and see how my opponents responded. Anyway, here's the results after I folded to the turn raise + call:

Seat 1: SNT51 ( $800 )
Seat 2: Atlashrug ( $800 )
Seat 4: drewdawggg ( $2475 )
Seat 8: busdecks ( $725 )
Seat 10: MarinerDaddy ( $800 )
Seat 5: BOCTOK_RU ( $800 )
Seat 6: HERO ( $800 )
Seat 3: bliztkrieg ( $800 )

Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Jd Td ]
SNT51 folds.
Atlashrug folds.
bliztkrieg folds.
drewdawggg folds.
BOCTOK_RU folds.
HERO calls [15].
busdecks calls [5].
MarinerDaddy checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Jc, 8s ]
busdecks checks.
MarinerDaddy checks.
HERO bets [40].
busdecks calls [40].
MarinerDaddy calls [40].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
busdecks checks.
MarinerDaddy checks.
HERO bets [125].
busdecks raises [250].
MarinerDaddy calls [250].
HERO folds.

** Dealing River ** [ Js ]
busdecks is all-In [420]
MarinerDaddy calls [420].
busdecks shows [ Qd, Th ] a straight, eight to queen.
MarinerDaddy shows [ 9h, 9s ] a full house, Nines full of jacks.
MarinerDaddy wins 1630 chips from the main pot with a full house, Nines full of jacks.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not exactly killing the $22s. I've only played a couple hundred and am at 6% ROI. With that grain of salt....

Preflop: I don't see any wrong option here. IMHO, folding, limping, and raising all have merit.

Flop: Don't forget that tight/WEAK is generally the way to go early on here. I would favor checking even though we have top pair. The pot is so small, you won't take donks off with a bet here. It's not like most of these guys are sitting there calculating outs and pot odds. They are figuring, "what's another $40 to see if I make my straight and smack this mutha" or "what's another $40 with my pocket 9s that are so pretty I can't let them go even though I strongly suspect this dude has a J."

So in your position I play like a wet noodle and check behind even on the flop (sometimes I bet out, admittedly). Again I don't think it's wrong to check, and I don't think it's wrong to value bet.

At the turn I think checking behind is clearly the play. Time to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible. When busdecks moves all-in I hope I somehow have the courage to lay down my trips and move another hand closer to the bubble while still having t735.