A Note to "WannaBe" Pros

[skipperbob]

This business is HARD...Make sure that your plan to quit your dayjob & become a "poker pro" has a "Plan 'B'" in case Plan 'A' doesn't work....If your reaction to this advice is: "He's an old fool that doesn't know squat"; I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

Im sure this is true, but running any business is hard. I think you have to have the same dedication to poker that you would have to starting/running any business. Are there any posters here that ran a more conventional business before switching to play poker full time? I'd like to know what their thoughts are of the differences between the two.

[Degen]

agree 235,000%

i am very disturbed at the 'i'm dropping out cuz i had a badass month!!' trend

college is more +EV than any of you students on heaters can possibly know

great article (http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/article16) by Ed Miller on the topic


edit: fox i did, i ran a company for about a year before 'going pro'...i like playing about a million times better overall, its a whole lot less like having a job and a whole lot more like personal freedom. even if you 'own' your business you still can't do whatever you please, you can't just not show up etc. with poker you can take a month off if you aren't feeling it, or do your job from another country or whatever. there may be companies that allow these perks but mine was not one of them.

aside from perks and drawbacks...i think the skill sets are very very similar...you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others (many times from people close to you). you also need money management, time managament, discipline, honesty with yourself and a bit on insanity to make either of them work IMO.

[curtains]

Ed Millers articles drive me insane for some reason. Quotes like the following are pretty insulting:

"I think people are dropping out of college because they see poker as their “way out.” Poker isn’t a way out of anything. It’s a game, and it can provide some nice extra cash. Some really nice cash if you are good. But eventually you are going to have to (or at least want to) live like a normal person again. Normal people finish college."


Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

[11t]

Yah I am a college student and I make enough to make poker better than working at a fast food joint, however that does limit my bankroll. Once I get my engineering (true love)degree, I'll be making enough money that poker will become a nice recreational activity that happens to make me money.

I don't ever plan on going "pro", I just don't think that life would hold enough meaning for me (not to try to take anything away from those who are professional poker players), but I've heard in interviews about how many players feel unaccomplished since they have spent their lives playing cards. Of course, this is true of many people throughout all walks of life. I just remember hearing John Juanda say that he wanted to go back to college and graduate and get a degree in medicine to become a doctor.

But yah, playing poker is hard, and taking big swings when you have bills can crush your soul. This is why it is hard to play your A+ game for like 40 hours a week consistently over the long term.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generalizations don't need to apply to everybody to be good generalizations. I think it is almost certainly true that more people think they can go pro and hack it than actually can, and they better have a backup option. Considering all kinds of other factors rather than just raw ability - getting bored with it in 2-3 years of grinding, the dubious legality of internet gambling, etc. - I think it's definitely wise to be thinking about what one will do if it doesn't work out.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that the average age of what you consider the "younger" posters here is ~15 years older than the average poster here....

Course, you DO have seniority on Methuselah, so who am I to quibble.

Daliman- 15 years older than the average poster here himself.

[Degen]

that is a bit insulting...

however quotes like this one are pretty dead on IMO:

[ QUOTE ]
College provides general knowledge, preparation for jobs, and, for better or worse, social status. If you knew you would play poker forever, maybe going to college wouldn’t matter so much. But you don’t know that, and furthermore, you probably won’t play poker forever. Most of you won’t be playing poker fulltime even five years from now.


[/ QUOTE ]

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
agree 235,000%

i am very disturbed at the 'i'm dropping out cuz i had a badass month!!' trend

college is more +EV than any of you students on heaters can possibly know

great article (http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/article16) by Ed Miller on the topic


edit: fox i did, i ran a company for about a year before 'going pro'...i like playing about a million times better overall, its a whole lot less like having a job and a whole lot more like personal freedom. even if you 'own' your business you still can't do whatever you please, you can't just not show up etc. with poker you can take a month off if you aren't feeling it, or do your job from another country or whatever. there may be companies that allow these perks but mine was not one of them.

aside from perks and drawbacks...i think the skill sets are very very similar...you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others (many times from people close to you). you also need money management, time managament, discipline, honesty with yourself and a bit on insanity to make either of them work IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to Believe that you were once the "hated" GauchoFish /images/graemlins/shocked.gif...Good Post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that the average age of what you consider the "younger" posters here is ~15 years older than the average poster here....

Course, you DO have seniority on Methuselah, so who am I to quibble.

Daliman- 15 years older than the average poster here himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're an IDIOT /images/graemlins/crazy.gifBook it /images/graemlins/crazy.gifYou have only one redeeming grace = You like the same drink I do /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
College provides general knowledge,

[/ QUOTE ]
Certainly not the only way to accumlate general knowledge.
[ QUOTE ]
preparation for jobs,

[/ QUOTE ]
In some cases, sure. But, probably not as effectively as vocational training of some sort, or an apprenticeship.

I think a lot of people confuse college with direction and purpose. With direction and purpose college may be quite beneficial. But, with direction and purpose a non-college route might serve you just as well.

Without direction and purpose, neither college nor non-college paths are likely to serve you too well.

And, I am quite convinced that college is not the place to find direction and purpose.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
college is more +EV than any of you students on heaters can possibly know

[/ QUOTE ] This is a broad generalization clearly and its very likely to apply better to the population in general than people who would/could be successful as Poker Professionals.

In general, I think Ed should limit his writings to things he knows well and stay away from general life advice. And as somebody who occasionally works in higher education the notion that people who were good or better students and leave to pursue other oppurunities never return to get their degree is much less true now that it was ten to fifteen years ago. And it was *never* all that true. Bein able to make six figures at a job that stimulates you intellectually and allows you to make your own hours is a very good opurtunity especially at a young age. Further I think its a huge waste to drift around a college campus rudderless with no bettter idea of why you are there than because that is what is expected of you. Its flat out stupid.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Bein able to make six figures at a job that stimulates you intellectually and allows you to make your own hours is a very good opurtunity especially at a young age.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is going to be a very small subset of people that skipperbob is addressing. I think he's more interested in reaching the audience that only thinks they can do this.

University has been -EV for me. Don't get me started on Student Loans. Wish I had just done self-study.

[ QUOTE ]
Further I think its a huge waste to drift around a college campus rudderless with no bettter idea of why you are there than because that is what is expected of you. Its flat out stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Of course, that doesn't mean that drifting rudderless in other places is necessarily better. For the rudderless, it can be hard to find +EV environments.

[skipperbob]

Where's the Rudder?...Is it at the pointy-end of the boat or the at the assend?...The Chief-of-the-Boat used to hate it when I asked that question...But then again, only two kinds of people whissle in the Navy; Chiefs & Queers

[ QUOTE ]

Ed Millers articles drive me insane for some reason. Quotes like the following are pretty insulting:

"I think people are dropping out of college because they see poker as their “way out.” Poker isn’t a way out of anything. It’s a game, and it can provide some nice extra cash. Some really nice cash if you are good. But eventually you are going to have to (or at least want to) live like a normal person again. Normal people finish college."


Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that quote is disgusting. I don't want to be normal. I don't strive to be normal. I don't want to work a 9-5. I don't want to make $50,000 a year. Everybody around here seems to think that trying to play poker is the "easy" way out. I think its the hard way, but could lead to being much more lucrative, while also allowing one to be free. Everybody has to look at their own situation and see what's best for them. If these two options are my choices:

1. Force myself to graduate college while hating every minute of it so I can get a square job that I also hate. Going this route has safety, you know you're never going to go bankrupt if you have any kind of money management skills, but how much are you going to enjoy life?

2. Take a shot at going pro in something that you absolutely love. Maybe you'll be broke in two months.

Which is the bigger mistake? I think not taking a shot is by far a bigger mistake.

I'm going to qualify this by saying that I am not any where near believing I have the skill set to play professionally yet, but I hope I have the guts to take a stab whenever I do develop the skills.

BTW, I'm 23, and never went to college.

[tewall]

FWIW, I agreed completely with the article.

[handsome]

I'm going to ignore your advice and go pro anyway, after I graduate in June.

[Newt_Buggs]

I still manage to fit in 20 hours of poker a week at school. I don't think that I want to play much more poker than that. Sure, there are many things that I would rather be doing other than school with the rest of the time, but school isn't bad and I'll have plenty of time for that when I graduate and have all of this money saved up.

[Indiana]

Poker is hard but so is corporate America. So is running a business. If poker were easy then it wouldn't be so interesting and we couldn't get the edge that we do. It also wouldn't be as motivating to learn the game better. But yes, poker is hard. At least there's no boss, at least you don't have to play some political game to step on anybody, and at least you don't have to have connections or be part of any family or specific ethnic group to become highly successful.

Indy

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
This business is HARD...Make sure that your plan to quit your dayjob & become a "poker pro" has a "Plan 'B'" in case Plan 'A' doesn't work....If your reaction to this advice is: "He's an old fool that doesn't know squat"; I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I agree with this. However, some small subset of hardheaded dreamers will ignore this advice, and a smaller subset of these people will become tomorrow's successful poker professionals.

I myself couldn't imagine playing poker for a living, but I can relate to pursuing a dream against the advice of almost everybody. I spent the majority of my young adulthood rock and ice climbing all over the country, instead of going to college and pursuing a career. I've since been pursuing a college degree part time (almost done!) while working full time, and it's been more difficult for sure than if I had attended college straight out of school. I still don't regret pursuing my dreams though, and I have lots of great experiences and memories of my younger days hanging it out there.

[Apathy]

Sure it can be hard at times but playing poker (mostly online I mean) for a living is great if you are young enough to have time to take a few years off the career "path" that involves university etc.

You can make tons of money, work (or not) whenever you want and do any amount of travelling or moving around since you can play from anywhere.

It does involve some amount of self discipline and money managment that comes more naturally to some then others, but anyone can work on those qualities. The lows can be really low so maybe it's just certain overally emotionally involved people that find playing poker for a living extremely difficult.

I've been on huge downswings before and have talked to many pros who have been in similar situations. You have to step back and realise things arent so bad, maybe you have to learn some hard lessons about constant effort to improve and bankroll managment every once in a while but as long as you do learn from your mistakes this job quickly becomes a lot more stress-free and relaxing, even when the results just arent there.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
at least you don't have to play some political game to step on anybody, and at least you don't have to have connections or be part of any family or specific ethnic group to become highly successful.


[/ QUOTE ]

In some ways that is true and its a great thing about poker, that the only discrimantory factor from any "public" game is money, anybody with the money can play. As far as "satalite" poker income goes though (writing artciles, books, poker products, coaching, etc.) poker is just like any other business in that respect.

IMHO, college is worth the experience even if you never do squat with your degree. Don't drop out of college to go pro if you think you are good enough. Do both. The education and experience, not to mention the girls, are too much to pass-over. Trust me, there is no better place than college for getting laid.

[DCJ311]

[ QUOTE ]

great article (http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/article16) by Ed Miller on the topic



[/ QUOTE ]

If I ever ran out of toilet paper and were in a jam, I'd simply print out an Ed Miller article.

Whatever you guys say... poker is a dream job. I mean, I used to spend all day sitting here behind my computer, playing games, surfing the internet, watching TV and whatever. Now I do exactly the same, only I am thousands of dollars richer.

I'm still in college, but I don't really like it. First of all I don't know if I like what I'm studying right now, and if I will like the job it might get me. Secondly, I can make more money now than I can if I work hard, and pay money for five years and then get a job. That's just insane. I won't quit school just yet, but I'm considering it.

People act like it's the end of the world if something bad happens, or if you're doing something that's not entirely socially accepted. But the point of life is not getting rich, or being socially accepted or getting many friends, or getting your diplomas... the point is to be happy. Everything we do is to achieve happiness, only we don't realize it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything we do is to achieve happiness, only we don't realize it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

When you don't really need to worry that much about money and don't have much in the way of responsibilities, there are fewer things that threaten to impinge on your happiness. A sense of security is something that many people find relaxing.

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
People act like it's the end of the world if something bad happens, or if you're doing something that's not entirely socially accepted. But the point of life is not getting rich, or being socially accepted or getting many friends, or getting your diplomas... the point is to be happy. Everything we do is to achieve happiness, only we don't realize it. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said "Don't Try"....For God's sake = GO4IT /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Just have a backup plan....That's all

I tried it....I was a "pro" for a year in a "B&M" Casino - Absolutely loved every minute...Now I'm back to work for the "Man".....G/L

[Bonafone]

I really can't see myself doing much other than playing poker professoinally the next 7-10 years. At that point I should have enough passive income to where I can do whatever intrests me at that time. I love this game and imo its not that hard if you are smart about things.

[ QUOTE ]
I love this game and imo its not that hard if you are smart about things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's true, but not for all players. Good high-stakes players think it's very easy to win at low stakes, while some players couldn't win at low stakes if their lives depended on it. It's like... it's easy IF you put a lot of effort in it, study, focus, have good money management, are intelligent, etc.

[Unoriginalname]

Note: this isn't aimed at anyone in specific. Just writing my general thoughts on this topic.

Regardless of whether someone wants to go pro or get a real job, I still wouldn't trade my college experience for anything (I graduated in 2004, I'm one year out). The things I learned, both in the classroom and out, the people I met and lifelong friends I made, the parties, etc. It seriously was the best damn 4 years of my life. If you have absolutely no interest and motivation to work toward a degree right now, I don't think it's awful to take a year or two off from college if you can make a lot of money while the poker boom is still around. I would highly recommend you still participate in some sort part-time job or volunteer organization though, even if it's only a few hours a week. You always want to continue to keep your social network alive. One good reason is if you ever want to change from being a poker pro, you're going to need good references and letters of recommendation. Pretty much everything you apply to in life demands these.

You can go back to college at any age, but if you wait too long, you won't be able to experience the true social aspect of college. If you're starting to get into your late 20s, you're just not going to fit in with the younger college students. Maybe you're not interested in the social aspect of college. That's fine then, to each his own.

[runner4life7]

while I am still in college and plan to finish while doing as little as possible, I find it depressing that everyone says those were the best years of my life...What am I going to do for the next 60-70 years? I'm sorry but I really just hate hearing that phrase. You can still have as good of time when you are 40, I am sure of it.

[Indiana]

Americans have too much fun in college in general, but I must admit that I miss the old college days myself. Basically, the rest of your life after school is just one long blur of 9-5 living....with an occasionally good poker game thrown in:)

Indy

[Indiana]

One thing I forgot to mention when I said poker is "hard." Its not that hard in poker to make a living, but its kinda hard to make a super-living. Realistically, anyone who studies hard and commits to the game will make 30K/yr or whatever you need to survive these days. Its a different ? if someone can make over 250K/yr or not. That's where I aim myself but its hard part time to accomplish it.

Indy

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
while I am still in college and plan to finish while doing as little as possible, I find it depressing that everyone says those were the best years of my life...What am I going to do for the next 60-70 years? I'm sorry but I really just hate hearing that phrase. You can still have as good of time when you are 40, I am sure of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, there have been studies on just this topic.

When old folks are asked to talk about their memories, they usually talk about things that happened before they were 25.

But they were happiest after 25.

The conclusion: college is (or should be) the most *memorable* four years of your life. It will help you become the happy person you will be later.

[runner4life7]

i like this reply, thanks

[Indiana]

Just don't buy a bunch of [censored] when you get outta college with your first job and you will be ok. Tying yourself down with material obligations will make you miserable in the long run and keep you from being flexible and happy like you were in college.

Indy

[johnnybeef]

While It has been dificult at times, it has also been very rewarding. I have learned so many +EV life situations from this game (including discipline, self control, and money management just to name a few.) If you have few responsibilities and have a passion for the game, I highly recommend it.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others

[/ QUOTE ]

How ironic is this coming from a guy who says that I wasn't cut out for this job??????!!!!

[tjh]

Great thread SkipperBob and great reply Jbrochu.

A person needs to do what they want in life and they need to think about the consequences.

I went to college for a long time and never graduated. I did a lot of "whatever I wanted to do" for a long time. I bought some land and that forced me to cave in to the pressure of monthly payments and got a job. I ran a business and I just might run one again. I have minimized my expenses so that I can maximize my freedom. I bought the cheap land because all of my tiny income was going to rent and that is -EV.

I play poker for fun but I do set goals. I think that next year I will try to win 10K over the year and over the next few years I will try and pay for 10 acres of vacant land that I just bought for 25K with poker winnings.

I also set anti-poker goals. Wasting a nice day playing poker when I can go outside just does not make sense. Play those games at night. I shoot for less than 30hrs/week at poker.

Folks who want to be different than everyone else and to do there "own thing" or "what they want" need to be aware that being different is not an easy road. Go for it! You can do it perhaps but it WILL be a bumpy road.

Folks that try and tell the first group "what to do" and "how to act" and how to "be prepared" for life and [censored] need to be aware that group one does not like being told what to do or how to act.

A good poker player has a good brain, maybe an addictive or compulsive personality but if they can do one thing well they can think.

So as the new year approaches all you wannabe pros should think for a bit. Below is my opinion on a number of things.

College:
College is a doorway to a decent selection of work. I think most work s*cks but somewhere in my thirties I found I had to have a job of some sort. I got lucky cause I knew internet programming and the market was hot. So my college years have yet to pay me much directly. I assume that there are hidden benefits like social skills connections etc.

Without a windfall like the internet boom or the ability to survive until something like that comes along, college is a good thing. Without computers I assume that the college that I do have would keep me from a wall-mart type job and into something better.

I have yet to find a job that I liked well enough to work 40 hours a week for more than a few months. I would rather live under a bridge than face a year in year out day to day grind. I honestly wish I could deal with the grind but I can not. I have found very good work that is part time. I got very lucky. I waited and searched and waited and searched and then I got lucky. Sort of like set-farming in NL games. I caught my set.. LOL.

DEBT:
Avoid debt at all costs. If you want to live your own life and be in control of what you do then debt is one sure way to give up control. With that in mind I am not sure if the college degreee is worth 60K of student loan debt. If you are going big time into debt to pay for school then you had better party like a maniac cause those monthly payments will hinder your freedom on down the road.

Running you own business:
Man that is a pain. Give it a try cause it can be better than working for someone else but avoid large sums of debt if you can.

POKER:
There is no time like the present to be a good poker player. I can play in a local unraked tournament 7 nights a week. I can play online all day long. This reminds me of the internet boom that I was lucky enough to catch. This good fortune is not likely to last.

So get it while you can. Do not burn any bridges. Stay out of debt. Understand that doing things "differently" has some costs. But if you cringe when someone recommends you act "normally" then go for it and be different. Just do not assume that being different is going to be easy.

===================================

I just tried to get a loan on my "different" house and it did not happen. Ignore the system but do not be bitter when the same system decides to ignore you. I spent my life trying not to fit into little boxes, but when I went for a loan they had a whole list of checkboxes that I did not fit into. Great I had won !!! I did not fit into the boxes, I did not get a loan.

Being a poker pro will not fit into any boxes on down the road. Be prepared for that. If you want to slip back into the normal system on down the road find a way to do both. I keep a shell of a business alive and work for myself so that I can show a solid work history if I need to get another job. My resume looks decent even though I have a lot of free time.

I don't know. I guess you can plot your own course but be prepared for a bumpy road. A bumpy fun crazy road. Contingency plans can only help so use your poker brains and think a bit.

I would go for pro but all this sitting, and computer screens and the like is just lame. If ESPN would just start airing the World Series of Fishing then I would find a hobby that really pays and is healthy and fun.

Like any of you college age folks listen to any one else anyhow /images/graemlins/cool.gif

--
tjh

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
ethnic group to become highly successful.Indy

[/ QUOTE ]Which group are you thinking about in particular that has a so much easier path to high success than the non-ethnic group?

This is my first post here, I've been lurking awhile, but this really got my interest.

I'm 33, got a civil engineering degree and have been working full time for seven years. Yes, that's an 8 year graduation plan. I had too much fn fun. I switched majors 6 times and easily had enough credits upon graduation for a P.h.D. Too bad they were spread all over the place.

My first job paid $30k in 1999. I'm now in the mid six figures. I do what I went to school for. I build bridges & roads. Everything I thought I wanted. I've got money, I'm married (no kids) and live in SoCal. What could be better? Then why am I miserable. Everyone is proud of me. Everyone is impressed with what I do. I have a lot of respect and a bit of prestige. So, why am I miserable?

The past seven years are a blur. I've accomplished a ton, but at what expense. Hardly a vacation, and no change in sight. Daily grind is out the door at 6am, home at 6pm. No life. Weekends are a blur. The only saving grace I have is I haven't loaded myself down w/ kids, mortgage, car payments and debt like the rest of society. Why? Cause then i'd really be phucked and have this career tied around my neck.

What's the point? My best time was college...BY FAR. School itself sucked, but the social interaction, learning experiences are PRICELESS. It doesn't matter if you're not going to get a degree and use it. JUST GET IT. It's so much easier at that age than later. Life is a long road. Don't be trying to catch up. You won't regret having that degree.

If I had it to do all over again? I'd get my degree, and if I was in a position of talent or had any poker skill, I'd give it a shot and do what you love, I'd go for it. Who cares if what you do is socially acceptable if you're gonna wake up one day at 65 and not remember your life cause you did what everyone said you should

[SuitedSixes]

If I fail as a professional poker player, which in all honesty seems inevitable, it will be due to my own shortcomings in areas of my personality and character.

The cards are the easy part. I have 100% winning confidence in NL ring games and 88% winning confidence at the $55s. My sense of worth has always been tied to my immediate success and failure (which is why I am no longer a football coach). And the swings of the bankroll manifest themselves in my emotions and it is very difficult to be a functioning member of society when you feel like world's champ one hour and a total failure the next.

The most financially secure I have ever been was when I was working and playing poker. I do not regret my decision to turn pro. It was the decision I needed to make at the time I needed to make it. If I can last one year (the end of March) I will feel a genuine sense of accomplishment. I will also need to decide at that time if I have the intangible qualities and if my personal disposition is best suited for this kind of life.

I am also at a very difficult time, personally, and the need to have friends and human contact beyond screen names and PMs is becoming more important to my overall happiness.

[TheNoodleMan]

One freaking loss and you change your avitar? For shame!

[The Yugoslavian]

skipperbob,

One note about being pro for a year at B&M...it usually helps if you're a winning player, /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Yugoslav

[ QUOTE ]
What's the point? My best time was college...BY FAR. School itself sucked, but the social interaction, learning experiences are PRICELESS. It doesn't matter if you're not going to get a degree and use it. JUST GET IT.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, you had a great social life and learned a bit about life. Absolutely nothing says the only place you can do that is in college.

You say you're smart not to have piled up debt, but most college grads finish school with lots of debt -- debt they likely wouldn't have were it not for school.

[tjh]

[ QUOTE ]


You say you're smart not to have piled up debt, but most college grads finish school with lots of debt -- debt they likely wouldn't have were it not for school.

[/ QUOTE ]

College is valuable but is it worth 60K in debt ?? I doubt it. I was/am too flaky to manage that much debt. This whole "student loan == financial assistance" is BS. Loaning any old 20 year old who comes along 30K is foolish for both parties. It certainly is not guaranteed to "help" the 20 year old.

The smartist (spelling humor...heh heh) thing someone could do is to pay for college with poker winnings.


[ QUOTE ]
friends and human contact beyond screen names and PMs is becoming more important to my overall happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear that !!!
I programmed for a few years and all this sitting in front of a monitor stuff is getting old. I worked from home programming and slowly went crazy, a good day of freelance coding meant no human contact. I refuse to let Poker do the same thing. Now I teach computer stuff so I get to talk to people. The internet part of poker is a double edged sword.

--
tjh

[The Yugoslavian]

Thanks for starting this retarded thread SFB.

I don't even think I can accept your free bevos & pizza next time around, /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

Yugoslav
<font color="white">Okay...fine....I'll accept /images/graemlins/smile.gif.</font>

[tewall]

Wise thoughts.

[gisb0rne]

I already graduated college in June, with a degree in math. The "normal" course is to kiss ass and lie till I get a job, kiss ass and lie till I get a raise, kiss ass and lie till to keep from being fired when the company downsizes, and pray the company doesn't cut my retirement benefits.

Frankly, I don't like kissing ass and lying my whole life so I'll play poker as long as I can.

Debt, why does every college student need to go into debt up to their eyeballs to graduate. So they can "study full time and devote their efforts to the classroom?" Get a friggin job, use poker, moneymanage. Go to J.C. for two years and transfer. Don't go to Harvard. There are a ton of reasonably priced schools that a half-way responsible person can afford w/o mortgaging their future. What ever happened to working and school?

I bartended three nights a week, lifeguarded summers and picked up odd jobs around campus to pay for school and my apartment and graduated after SEVEN years of school with no debt.

Debt is an excuse. Most people don't want to go to school cause they're lazy. It's not easy. Things in life that are worth having are not easy. A college degree is worth having.

[Mr_J]

[ QUOTE ]
A college degree is worth having.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to everyone.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't go to Harvard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harvard is still probably +EV, although not as much in the past.

Don't go to an expensive second-tier school though. Like Yale. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

For some, a college degree is very valuable, for others it has next to no value, for yet others it has negative value. I don't have a problem with college, I have a problem with blanket statements like: get your degree, you won't regret it.

I would not have nearly so much trouble with a statement like: get vocational training, you won't regret it. But, not every college degree or college course is vocational training. And, there's plenty of vocational training that is done outside of college.

[IHateKeithSmart]

Bleh, this post has sort of devolved into a college/no college debate, which wasn't the point sfb was trying to make.

I went to college, and I'm almost done with my MS (CS). I've been 'working for the man' for about 9 years. It's going well for me. I enjoy the work, etc. It's not for everyone though, I know plenty of people who would hate what I do.

But that's not the point either. The key to what sfb is saying is to have options. Noone wants to be painted into a corner and feel like they have no choice in the way they live their life.

Without reads, I say college is +EV. But, everyone has their own dream to chase and muse to follow. I have lots of friends who dropped out and are doing just fine. Just go into it with your eyes open, and make your own decisions based on the information you have.

Most of the folks on the list are young enough to bounce back if they hit a wall, with poker, college, work, life, etc.

[jeffraider]

Going pro is a great fit for some people, a good fit for other people and a terrible fit for most people. It looks appealing to a whole lot of people though.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]

Ed Millers articles drive me insane for some reason. Quotes like the following are pretty insulting:

"I think people are dropping out of college because they see poker as their “way out.” Poker isn’t a way out of anything. It’s a game, and it can provide some nice extra cash. Some really nice cash if you are good. But eventually you are going to have to (or at least want to) live like a normal person again. Normal people finish college."


Anyway there are a lot of things that "normal" people do that aren't very appealing to me. Also who is he to say how someone else is going to want to live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen, I never said the article didnt have many relevant and important points. However he just sometimes makes quotes that are ignorant and insulting. I don't have to or want to ever go to college like a "normal" person, which is what the above sentence basically says that anyone reading the article would want to do.

I mean you just have to read critically for a few seconds to see how ridiculous the final sentence of the paragraph is. It states in clear English that you must go to college or want to go to college to be a "normal" person. He makes a sweeping generalization about how others should want to live their lives. I find such comments offensive.

How about if I told everyone here with a "normal" job about how stupid it was of them to be "working", and that they should just learn to 8 table the $215s and get a 10% ROI and make like 1600 per day working 8 hours, and then went on to tell you how you could make more money doing this than your regular job, and that because of this, you should attempt to choose this route in life. Of course this is ridiculous and I would never attempt to tell other people how to live their lives.

[Mr_J]

I couldn't agree more.

[LostMyCaseMoney]

I've played pro for two years. I'm now going to start college next semester.

I'm not going to comment much on this just because so much simply depends on the individual. All I will say is that right now it's so easy to make a living playing poker anybody can do it. Just eight tabling 3/6 you can easily make over 80k a year which for a young single person is a lot of money compared to if they were in the workforce. When the bubble bursts you won't be making nearly as much as you are now. You will have to play much better, much longer, for less money. No one is going to talk someone out of attempting to go pro but keep in mind the reason so many people fail to go pro sucessfully is because it's a tough gig. Right now it's cake but in a few more years that won't be the case.

[Mr_J]

Poker is just a way for me to put capital together, so it wouldn't bother me if the 'bubble' did burst in a few years time.

"When the bubble bursts"

That is just your opinion. Saying 'bubble' makes it sound like online poker is a fad, and it's not. It's popularity may not increase as much as it has done recently, but there's no reason to expect anything extreme.

"You will have to play much better, much longer, for less money"

Again, you're assuming things will get MUCH tougher. Much better, much longer and for less money?? Are you serious? You're acting as if our hourly rates will be cut 75% or something.

"Right now it's cake but in a few more years that won't be the case. "

That's what they were saying a few years ago.

You're being a bit dramatic there.

[Unoriginalname]

[ QUOTE ]
while I am still in college and plan to finish while doing as little as possible, I find it depressing that everyone says those were the best years of my life...What am I going to do for the next 60-70 years? I'm sorry but I really just hate hearing that phrase. You can still have as good of time when you are 40, I am sure of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I didn't mean to depress you. Take note I'm 23 years old. I've only been out of college one year. All I have to compare my college years to is basically the elementary, middle, and high school years of my life, and compared to those, college blew them away. I'm definitely not saying the rest of your life compared to your college years is going to suck, as I have no authority to say that! All I'm trying to say is that it's a once in a life time experience. I'm not saying it's your only chance to live happily. Even though I'll treasure those memories forever, I really really hope down the road I don't still consider those the best years of my life.

[FatTony21]

It's a good idea to have a backup plan, but that doesn't have to be a college degree. Anyone who dropped out of college to go pro probably isn't corporate material anyway, and these days that's what a degree usually prepares you for.

Instead, always keep your eyes open for a new opportunity. Maybe you'll find something that earns more than poker, or maybe, God forbid, something you enjoy doing everyday. Learn about realestate, open a strip club, etc. If you made the jump to go pro, you've already had to deal with all they naysayers, and that's something most people never find the courage to do. You're already ahead of most "normal" people.

[ QUOTE ]
Going pro is a great fit for some people, a good fit for other people and a terrible fit for most people. It looks appealing to a whole lot of people though.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true!! So many people think it's fascinating that I'm a professional gambler. They have no idea.

I came into gambling strictly by accident. Eking out a small edge from the casinos. Slowly built a bankroll while working a small business as an independent contractor.

Started in 1996, by 1998 my gambling income matched my work income, after that gambling exceeded work income. Guess it was early 2000 that I realized I could really make some money. Kept reinvesting my earnings into my bankroll so that I could up my stakes and up my earnings. Began to think about the possibility of going full time. Two years later, house bought with cash, a substantial bankroll (necessary with an approximate 1% edge at high stakes in a volatile game), money to buy a new car with cash, I quit my business.

Though I love my freedom, it took me about a year to get over it. I missed my colleagues and clients terribly. Your world gets very narrow as a gambler, you have to really make an effort to connect with the world.

You can go where you want when you want. Most people cannot. It's difficult to find people with the same flexibility in their schedules, except other gamblers.

You must be able to adapt to change. In my case, once a casino in which I "worked" realized they were losing money, they changed things. Whoops, no income. Back on the road, find another opportunity. I had a casino basically steal $38,000 from me.

My freedom and autonomy mean the most to me. But basically this is a non productive endeavor, it can leave one feeling empty. I believe it's important to have other interests and friends for some balance in life.

So if you really wanna be a pro, plan for it, make sure you have enough money and no debt. You don't want the inevitable downswings to cause you too much stress.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
I really can't see myself doing much other than playing poker professoinally the next 7-10 years CUZ I'M MAKING BILL GATES MONEY RIGHT NOW . At that point I should have enough passive income to where I can do whatever intrests me at that time CUZ I'M SMART WITH MY MONEY . I love this game and imo its not that hard if you are smart about things AND ARE COACHED AND MENTORED BY SOME OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE BUSINESS!! .

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

not everyone is so lucky...

that is the whole point, stories like yours make it seem easy to others, when in reality it has merely come easily to you.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you need a profound trust and faith in yourself and a complete disregard for the opinions and input of others

[/ QUOTE ]

How ironic is this coming from a guy who says that I wasn't cut out for this job??????!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

from others who don't understand the game or what it takes to be an entrepreneur...if you don't perceive me as having the credibility to make that assessment then take it with a grain of salt. the context in which i wrote that line is that my family is very conservative, christian, puritan work ethic, working for the man and paying taxes is the only good way to leads ones life. running a business at a young age and gambling for a living is seen as poor form in these circles, especially after having spent a great deal of time and money getting pedigreed to work for somebody else. but yes, if i was wrong, and you are meant for this life, then that applies to you as well.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
I have learned so many +EV life situations from this game (including discipline, self control, and money management just to name a few.)

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ha.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have learned so many +EV life situations from this game (including discipline, self control, and money management just to name a few.)

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ha.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yo, I am slowly improving. I haven't done a line off of a strippers ass in over 3 months. Seriously though, You will not see me at STTFHUC 2 unless I have at least 3k to blow, 50 buyins at the 55s to come back to, and all of my debt payed off.

ps. I now hate you more than 66s Unarmed.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
Yo, I am slowly improving. I haven't done a line off of a strippers ass in over 3 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

Classic... I just blew my morning coffee out both nostrils and all over my keyboard. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[xLukex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have learned so many +EV life situations from this game (including discipline, self control, and money management just to name a few.)

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ha.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was thinking. I was only hoping someone else would say it first.

[The Yugoslavian]

beefy,

Are you sure it's not that you're better at money management you just happen to not be running bad right now??

Yugoslav

[PickyTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
This business is HARD...Make sure that your plan to quit your dayjob &amp; become a "poker pro" has a "Plan 'B'" in case Plan 'A' doesn't work....If your reaction to this advice is: "He's an old fool that doesn't know squat"; I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

[/ QUOTE ]

You are an old fool. If you want success in life is there anything that's not hard? I bet you, you would give all you're congrats and support to a person that would tell you they're quitting there day job to start a business of some sort. Yet 9/10 businesses fail within five years and of that 10% that are still around, 90 % of those will fail eventually.

I guess all I'm trying to say is unless you're happy with a 9-5 job making 50k/year nothing will ever come easy in life.

[microbet]

I vastly prefer old fools over young punks.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
beefy,

Are you sure it's not that you're better at money management you just happen to not be running bad right now??

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Have I said that I am 100% coming to STTFHUC2 yet?

[skipperbob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This business is HARD...Make sure that your plan to quit your dayjob &amp; become a "poker pro" has a "Plan 'B'" in case Plan 'A' doesn't work....If your reaction to this advice is: "He's an old fool that doesn't know squat"; I hope you will ask the younger posters that know what they are doing.
Like = SuitedSixes/Lacky/UnArmed/Irieguy/and others

[/ QUOTE ]

You are an old fool. If you want success in life is there anything that's not hard? I bet you, you would give all you're congrats and support to a person that would tell you they're quitting there day job to start a business of some sort. Yet 9/10 businesses fail within five years and of that 10% that are still around, 90 % of those will fail eventually.

I guess all I'm trying to say is unless you're happy with a 9-5 job making 50k/year nothing will ever come easy in life.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree Completely....That's a normal "completely", not a Yugo "completely" /images/graemlins/confused.gif