Ever Correct to Limp KK?

[Festus22]

4th hand at 0.50/1 UB and I get K-K in late middle (CO-1?). All fold to me (!), I raise and ALL FOLD!!! Good grief, I hope my image isn't THAT tight. Needless to say, I was bumming with my $0.75 bonanza.

This got me thinking - don't I want callers when I hold the second best PF hand there is? I guess another way to state this is if my raise eliminates more than half of those who would have called, there is less money going into the pot then there otherwise would have been. Conversely, I've also eliminated a bunch of hands that may have beat me. Is there a breakeven point somewhere where limping to keep callers is better than raising and losing them?

In my case, callers = 0 was worse than a 50% chance to win against 3 or 4 opponents.

[JoeU]

I think it is normally incorrect to limp with KK. One reason to raise is to get more money in the pot with the best hand. If you had callers before you, then a raise is definitely the play to make. I'm not a big fan of letting the blinds catch on the flop in this spot. I actually took the worst beat of my life with KK in the cutoff. KK and AA are the 2 hands I almost always raise with no matter what the situation is. Be happy you won .75 instead of losing $3 or $4. The object of the game is to win money in the end. And you did that very well here.


Joe

[Mike Gallo]

Festus,

The first time you limp and someone gets a free play with 7 2 and flops two pair you will post a bad beat story.

Keep raising your premium hands.

Michael

[Nottom]

If you are raising with most hands you play in this position, people aren't going to put you on anything as strong as KK. Sure you will steal the blinds at times with your big hands, but you will also be stealing them often with hands that are barely worth the blinds and when you do get a premium hand you should get payed off nicely.

Keep on raising those kings!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Never complain when they push you the pot.

[DrSavage]

The ONLY time it might be right to limp with KK is if you think somebody will raise behind you so you can 3-bet. Doesn't usually happen at low stakes so just raise.

[Huh]

I disagree. In a heads-up confrontation it can be correct. In a situation where the button will open raise any ace, but have respect for your three bet, I think it can also be corrected. I think just calling your huge pairs after a steal attempt pays off more than the extra small bet you plan on getting pre-flop, and adds a good deal of deception to your game (I play with lots of the same people on a regular basis). Also, people get a little gun-shy when you call your blind with a legit defending hand.

Oh yeah, and as for the original post. If it is an aggressive game where anyone who enters the pot after you is going to raise, than it might be okay. Otherwise, I think you need to be open raising with a lot more hands in this type of game. Pretty much any hand that's playable.

-Huh

[Ed Miller]

You need to be 3-betting more hands from the BB against steal attempts if a 3-bet gives your hand away as a big pair. I 3-bet with hands like KJo and A8s against raises that I suspect to be steals.

[Huh]

Why?

I used to do this, but I stopped. Most players I play will have an ace in their hand or two cards above a nine, or a pocket pair, and they might just have a "real" hand. The situation doesn't come up a lot, and sometimes I will three-bet with suspect hands, but when I do I want to be able to win the pot without a showdown. If I three-bet more frequently, I think this would be more difficult.

-Huh

[Ed Miller]

I fold my blinds. A lot. So sometimes some turkey gets the bright idea (probably correctly) that he can raise my blind from late position with 75% of his hands. If that's the case, I 3-bet him with all sorts of stuff. My opponent needs to know that sometimes he will steal my blind... but if he doesn't then he's paying 3 bets to see the flop with his 84s, not 2. It's the "defense against the semibluff" that Sklansky mentions in TOP, among other places.

If the stealer is more selective, then you should also be a little more selective about what hands you 3-bet. But if you just call every time someone steal-raises you (which is what I assume if you just call with KK), you are giving up a lot.

[Stu Pidasso]

I used to do this, but I stopped. Most players I play will have an ace in their hand or two cards above a nine, or a pocket pair, and they might just have a "real" hand.

Not three betting against steals is being short sighted. The reason you three bet is because you need to let the stealer know that if he tries to steal, it may cost him 3 bets. You three bet not for this hand, but for future hands. If he correctly thinks a steal attempt is only going to cost him 2 bets, steals become much more profitable, and he will correctly try to steal more often. If he considers it may cost him three bets, he has to have stronger hands to steal with to show a profit.

Stu

[brian0729]

I used to get frustrated when I would PFR and everybody folded, but I have lost enough hands with KK now that every time I collect $1.50 (playing 1/2)from the blinds. I'm /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SoCalPat]

I would never limp with the cowboys from EP or MP, and when I really think about it, the only place I could imagine doing it from is the SB when it's folded to me. Then I can perhaps induce a steal-raise from the BB, and promptly proceed to hammer him.

Of course, if the cutoff or button raise and I'm sensing steal, I will three-bet, be it from the SB or BB. I might even show KK afterward to demonstrate that, if you're trying to steal my blind and I raise, I've got the goods when I fight back. Then, I can usually get cards for free in later hands when I'm re-raising or stealing in this situation with less-optimal hands, like KQo or A10s

[elysium]

hi festus
what is happening here is that you are perceived as tight by the other players. occasionally you have to raise in without hands as strong as KK. does this mean raising first in from MP with KQ or QJ? yes it does! raising in with hands that are weaker than usual when you are in MP and first in, is basic poker. some players make raises with even lesser holdings under particular conditions and table environment. i don't reccomend that you do that however. but you can and should raise in occasionally from MP with hands like AT or KQ. you likely do have the best hand and this will keep your opponents guessing and calling.