Do Online Players Going B&M Have a Lot of Tells? [Archive]

RiverTheNuts

12-22-2005, 06:47 AM

the things I have noticed in my first week of B&M play in myself are the following:

I prep my cards to either play or fold before action is on me, so someone paying attention could tell what I was planning on playing before it got to me.

I also act too straight forwardly, and sometimes am too anxious to spit out raise and do it.

Besides that I am very good at looking like a kid with autism, I dont really make eye contact or smile or have any other ticks ive noticed yet

I play 3/6 so it doesnt really matter, raise fast, raise slow, grin while raising the nuts all hand, theyll still reraise and beat you into the pot. Im gonna try and act a little more deceptively in the future, short pauses, rechecking hole cards, glancing around at the board, things that might make worse hands call.

juanez

12-22-2005, 06:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Does the typical online player who plays at a B&M for the first time typically give off a lot of tells?

[/ QUOTE ]

Subtle things like the Party Poker t-shirt or the Full Tilt visor might make a few folks nervous. J/K man /images/graemlins/grin.gif

MookieBlaylock

12-22-2005, 08:33 AM

To answer your question, yes. Please refer to season one of "Tilt".

MediaPA

12-22-2005, 10:12 AM

Darn you beat me to it. 'Internet finger' or something, lol.

Nope, don't worry too much about tells, just try to do everything pretty much the same. I hardly bother looking for tells at this level, mainly because I really don't want to look at the people I'm playing with.

I'll give you one example. Any time a guy I played with would say 'Raise,' he had it. When the raise was just with chips, it was a much weaker hand. Stuff like this should be avoided.

Oh yeah, don't say 'Check/call', ;Bet/Raise', etc. before it's your turn. J/K

12-22-2005, 10:16 AM

Yes, for the most part. This typically doesn't matter in the limit games, but can in the NL games if you are playing high enough. A few things to remember are:

-Don't look at your cards until it is your turn to act preflop
-Take the same amount of time each time you bet/raise (but don't take too long and hollywood it up)
-Speak clearly when declaring a raise, bet, or all-in

Act natural. Talk to the players if you like to talk and be social, or just look down at the felt if you are afraid of giving off a tell. Whatever is most comfortable and repeatable in all situations is what I suggest you do.

Good luck!

drewjustdrew

12-22-2005, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
-Don't look at your cards until it is your turn to act preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. It slows down the game and it basically draws everyone's attention to you at the point that you are most likely to expose facial/body language.

12-22-2005, 11:50 AM

If I get a premium hand, I'll look at it for a shorter amount of time than a mediocre hand.

MagicFlea

12-22-2005, 11:55 AM

I just played my first live game (4/8) and honestly tells couldn't have been any less relevant. At the loosest point in the game my neighbor and I would literally discuss our winning hands while betting the pot and get called down. As in "watch, all three of those guys down there are going to chase me all the way even though I've already hit my flush... bet-call-call-call, bet-call-call-call, show flush, take pot"

There was also a time that the table was tough but I think at this level people are pretty much playing their hand and not trying to read you.

12-22-2005, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-Don't look at your cards until it is your turn to act preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this. It slows down the game and it basically draws everyone's attention to you at the point that you are most likely to expose facial/body language.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point of doing this is so no one knows what you will do before it's your turn to act, since you don't know what you will do. This prevents your giving off pre-fold / pre-call / pre-raise tells. It also allows you to look around and see how other people are reacting to their cards. As long as you can look at AA the same as 75, you should be okay.

For the OP, rule #1 protect your cards at all times. Some people put a chip on them, but I hold my cards throughout the hand with my left hand and bet with my right. Peel up the corners and make sure your neighbors can't see your cards....protect them with both hands when looking at them. Yes, acting quickly is a good idea, esp. at a low limit table.

Wouldn't worry too much about giving off tells...half the people aren't paying attention to you anyways. FWIW, I usually look at the board when I play.

ScottieK

TomBrooks

12-22-2005, 01:05 PM

OK, I guess it doesn't matter too much at the entry level. I won't worry about it.

Just out of curiousity, does anybody ever make any conscious effort when playing online to not show tells as a sort of practice for playing B&M, or to avoid developing a bad habit that might show up unconsciously when playing live?

Luv2DriveTT

12-22-2005, 01:18 PM

12-22-2005, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I guess it doesn't matter too much at the entry level. I won't worry about it.

Just out of curiousity, does anybody ever make any conscious effort when playing online to not show tells as a sort of practice for playing B&M, or to avoid developing a bad habit that might show up unconsciously when playing live?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guidelines for playing online

- Only use auto-function to fold. B&M, I always hold my cards until it's my turn to act, then I fold. No pitching motion, nothing.

- Try to take the same amount of time to act. It's easy on Paradise because the player in front of me acts, his name fades out and is replaced by his action, then his name comes back....takes about two seconds. I usually act right after this. I try to do the same thing B&M. Guy next to me acts...one...two...I act.

- Never type responses while in a hand. Was in a SNG yesterday, found myself chip leader and was bullying everyone around. Four-handed, I raised as a blind steal...and one guy typed "I have a good hand....and you have been a bully." He folded. I'm almost positive if I had said anything, he would have called. I had A7 and did not want a call. Likewise, B&M, I don't say a word when someone's fishing for a tell.

ScottieK

12-22-2005, 02:06 PM

If I want them to call my river value bet and they are thinking, I sometimes start giving off strange mannerisms weird behavior to try and spark their curiosity.

12-22-2005, 02:09 PM

Caro's book useful? (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580420826/ref=pd_cmp_rvi_1_a/103-8945385-5399841?n=283155)

RiverTheNuts

12-22-2005, 03:57 PM

I have this book too, I need to look through it now that I am B&M'ing it up, Im sure it could add around 1 BB/100 to my rate at 3/6

PokerCad

12-22-2005, 06:14 PM

player reads are for the most part are meaningless until the 20-40 range in LMHE IMHO. I think 99 out of 100 players are clueless, or better yet unthinking, until you reach this level. FWIW I can almost always tell an internet player in the B&M simply by the way they handle there chips and place bets (PS this really only applies to the internet players that think they are good poker players, the good WINNING internet players are pretty schooled in B&M and not too many of them play 20-40 or less), again IMHOand unfortunately, not that all internet players are rude, but I find the rudest players are the on-line players, I guess they are too use to flaming other players in their chat browsers /images/graemlins/frown.gif. Don't get me wrong, it is probably just a small minority but it is what I see. As far as tells, the most reliable and easiest to read tell from beginner B&M players (and yes even at the higher limits up to 40-80) that I am experienced at is the subconcious hand trembling when they have a big hand. When I see this I almost always fold unless I have the nuts. Caro notes this also,,,,,Players always think that other players are looking at their face so they focus on not giving anything through facial tells, but the hands are really where the tells are /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RiverTheNuts

12-22-2005, 06:24 PM

I shake whether I have the nuts or I am bluffing, or just because I am cold, I think many others are the same way.

I think pumping the pot with the best hand is less nerve wracking than bluffing, I shake less when pumping the nuts.

wildzer0

12-22-2005, 07:13 PM

Same here. I was happy to discover I shake just as much on a total bluff as I do with the nuts. I look like an epileptic riding bumper cars.

27offsooot

12-22-2005, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, for the most part. This typically doesn't matter in the limit games, but can in the NL games if you are playing high enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO

TomBrooks

12-22-2005, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
your first few B&M visits ignore tells completely, just play solid SSHE style limit hold'em. Then once you feel comfortable start paying attention to your own body movements and expressions, as well as your opponents. You will learn a lot about yourself this way both as a player and also as an individual.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi TT,
That's an interesting comment.

I started playing poker about a year and a half ago only because a guy I know who is the author of a book about Body Language recommended it. He said as well as being a good social activity, it was great practice for reading body language which leads to understanding people in general.

I've been playing on line ever since to get ready for the time I would play live. It's taken me this long to get up to playing 2/4 and 3/6, the minimum stakes you can usually find in a live game.

TomBrooks

12-22-2005, 09:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
does anybody ever make any conscious effort when playing online to not show tells as a sort of practice for playing B&M

[/ QUOTE ]My guidelines for playing online
- Only use auto-function to fold. B&M, I always hold my cards until it's my turn to act, then I fold.
- Try to take the same amount of time to act. do the same thing B&M.
- Never type responses while in a hand. B&M, I don't say a word when someone's fishing for a tell.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Scott,

I was thinking more along the lines of showing emotion when playing on-line such as exclaiming something out loud or drooping your head and shoulders or openly smiling etc.

Online those things don't matter, and it would seem like it's taking some of the fun out of playing if you tried to surpress your emotions while sitting in front of a computer. But I wondered if these kinds of habits can get ingrained to some degree and backfire on you when you go to a B&M? It doesn't sound like an issue for a beginner at the mini-stake tables.

I wonder if the guys who play for mid and high stakes though, make a disciplined effort to play online with their poker faces, so they don't inadvertantly let something slip when playing live because of bad habits that didn't matter when online.

12-22-2005, 11:36 PM

You are overplaying your hand, sir.

12-23-2005, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Scott,

I was thinking more along the lines of showing emotion when playing on-line such as exclaiming something out loud or drooping your head and shoulders or openly smiling etc.

Online those things don't matter, and it would seem like it's taking some of the fun out of playing if you tried to surpress your emotions while sitting in front of a computer. But I wondered if these kinds of habits can get ingrained to some degree and backfire on you when you go to a B&M? It doesn't sound like an issue for a beginner at the mini-stake tables.

I wonder if the guys who play for mid and high stakes though, make a disciplined effort to play online with their poker faces, so they don't inadvertantly let something slip when playing live because of bad habits that didn't matter when online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. Never thought of it that way. I don't talk a lot to the monitor, throw crap around when I lose or get all excited when I'm ahead online...I just figure I'm getting paid to make good decisions. Haven't had a problem with tells at a B&M...at least that I know of. There is one tell I think I exhibit sometimes, and it is something I'm working on. I can usually differentiate between online and B&M, as far as how to act at the table. Maybe it is a good idea to practice your game face online.

You're right though...most of the guys at the LL B&M tables won't notice what you're doing because they're too busy watching the game or ordering drinks or whatever.

ScottieK

mostsmooth

12-23-2005, 01:13 PM

Al_Capone_Junior

12-23-2005, 01:17 PM

The tells they give off are not the part of the typical online player's first trip to the cardroom that stands out the most.

What stands out is that they are typically complete stiffs who have absolutely NO CLUE about live cardroom behavior or ettiquette, let alone plain common sense or human decency. Yet they also can't stop telling everyone all about how they play online. I wish the vast majority of them would just GO BACK to playing online and stay the hell out of the cardrooms already.

al

bernie

12-23-2005, 03:38 PM

Some do. But they may have had those tells anyways.

Generally, they tend to have a problem with the speed of the game. They aren't used to watching a game unless they have a hand in it. Someone also mentioned suppressing emotions during a hand. You don't really get that online. When they get buried early in a session, after a couple hours, it tends to seem like forever to them. 1000 hands is alot different live than online multitabling.

I also like Al's response... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

b

PokerCad

12-23-2005, 03:43 PM

I am not speaking of general shaking, nor of trembling from general nervousness, but of all of the tells listed in Caro's book this is the one that I find to be most reliable in body language tells, and yes I do believe expert player reading almost makes up for the deficiency in BB's per hour in not being able to multi-table in a B&M. Just my thoughts

bernie

12-23-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
player reads are for the most part are meaningless until the 20-40 range in LMHE IMHO. I think 99 out of 100 players are clueless, or better yet unthinking, until you reach this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree.

So you have no reads on a passive table when someone is 3 betting the turn? You can really just put them on anything? C'mon.

The players are thinking, just not that much beyond their own hands. Playerprofiling at limits under 20-40 is pretty easy.

Betspeed is the big one. Online players don't have to worry as much about subtle betspeed tells. Live, they are very reliable.

b

bernie

12-23-2005, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just played my first live game (4/8) and honestly tells couldn't have been any less relevant. At the loosest point in the game my neighbor and I would literally discuss our winning hands while betting the pot and get called down. As in "watch, all three of those guys down there are going to chase me all the way even though I've already hit my flush... bet-call-call-call, bet-call-call-call, show flush, take pot"

There was also a time that the table was tough but I think at this level people are pretty much playing their hand and not trying to read you.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tells are usually more prevelant and beneficial when they are the aggressors, not just calling.

b