Sic semper tyrannis

[Zeno]

In April 1945 as the ranks of Italian partisans, or resistance fighters, swelled and the Allied armies advanced north, Mussolini fled toward Switzerland hidden in a retreating German army convoy. Near Lake Como, partisans captured him. The next day, April 28, 1945, at Giulino di Mezzegra, Mussolini was tried in a summary court-martial and executed (shot) with his mistress, Clara Petacci. Their bodies, brought to Milan, were hanged in a public square and then buried in an unmarked grave. Mussolini's body was later removed, and in 1957 it was placed in his family's vault.

Many Italian’s jeered at the Duce and his vixen mistress, or so I have read somewhere, as they hung in the square. Hanging the bodies up in a public square was a healthy catharsis for the Italian people.


Maybe the same thing would be good for the Iraqi’s.

[Ray Zee]

werent we the ones that cried out to the world how sick it was to post pictures or parade dead hostages or soldiers through the streets. are we to have it both ways.

[brad]

iirc US called it a 'war crime' 2 show US prisoners on tv.

[MMMMMM]

OK, we can't have it both ways, but the situation isn't exactly parallel either.

[Mark Heide]

Zeno,

The situation between Iraq and Italy is different. It would have been a real victory for the US to capture Saddam's sons alive and put them on trail for human rights violations. Instead, the two deaths have created doubts. Even though a group of Iraqi's have identified the bodies, there are citizens that believe that the sons are not dead because they think that this group of Iraqi's are "in bed" with the US.

I hope that we can capture Saddam Hussein alive. Put him on trial for theft and human rights violations in the world court. Politically, this is much better for the US.

Mark

[brad]

n. viets tortured americans in bamboo cages = bad

US tortures afgans, etc. in metal boxes = good

(doublethink)

[Zeno]

Points accepted. Bad Idea on my part.

-Zeno

[MMMMMM]

militant Communism = bad

fanatical militant Islam = bad

[MMMMMM]

Yes, it would be much better politically. Hopefully it will be possible. Also, I think the Iraqis should try him, not the World Court. After they try him they should hang him and do to his body what the mob did to Mussolini. And I'll bet they will if we let them.

[andyfox]

How would hanging Mussolini's body in the square be good for the Iraqi people?

[brad]

for the same reason torturing illiterate afghan peasants in guantanamo bay us good -- it shows the world that it can be done, and with impunity.

[brad]

what does that have to do with torture?

(anyway i thought it was ok for US to torture because they are subhuman, whereas its an atrocity for anyone to torture any US neo-uebermenschen.

[Zeno]

Are you rubbing it in Andy? I admitted it was a bad idea.

I shot myself in the foot, so can I now lick my wound in some peace. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Zeno

[Cyrus]

"Mussolini was tried in a summary court-martial and executed (shot) with his mistress, Clara Petacci. Their bodies, brought to Milan, were hanged in a public square and then buried in an unmarked grave. Many Italians jeered at the Duce and his vixen mistress, or so I have read somewhere, as they hung in the square. Hanging the bodies up in a public square was a healthy catharsis for the Italian people."

Catharsis ? Well, yes, I guess it gives off a good feeling to watch tyrants dealt a (lethal) dose of their own medicen! I have re-run the tape with Ceausescu's "trial" and subsequent execution some hundred times and still couldn't get enough, that's how ghoulish I can get. Still, i know it's wrong.

I always found completely disgusting the picture of Mussolini and his mistress (who was guilty of absolutely no crime whatsoever except being in love with Mussolini) hung upside down from the lamppost. The woman's skirt had fell round her head leaving her privates exposed, as a further indignity inflicted upon "the dead enemy". (She was covered for the photographs.) That was a feeling I'm rather proud of. Same nausea I felt when looking at the pictures of shaven-headed young women who were paraded and ridiculed around the streets of France, right after Liberation, to the jeers and egg-throwing of the whole town. (Their crime was that they had had relations with Germans during the Occupation.)

[Cyrus]

Triplethink = brad ?

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MMMMMM]

First of all, al-Qaedans are trying to attack and kill us all. That's their goal. They are possessed of a bizarre and implacable ideology which calls for the destruction of Western civilization and its replacement with a strict Koranic-based government. I think we need, in our own defense, to extract information regarding future plans and attacks from these madmen. I don't think that should mean using widescale torture against them, but I do think it might be appropriate to use on some of their leaders solely for the purpose of extracting information which could prevent horrible attacks which are already planned.

However a carrot-and-stick approach using the threat of burying them in pigskins if they don't cooperate, or promising them a decent Islamic burial if they do cooperate, might actually be more effective than torture.

Who knows, we are dealing with people who believe insane ideas and who have absolutely no regard for innocent life.

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus I agree with your feelings on these matters. However in this case it is critical that the Iraqi people know that Saddam and his sons are truly dead or imprisoned. A poll taken shows 1/3 of the Iraqis believed the photos of dead Qusay and Uday to be fake. For the long-terrified Iraqis, it is necessary to have some sort of certainty and closure in order to move forward. So in this case it might be a good idea from a practical standpoint. At least the populace would know in their gut that they don't have to sleep in fear of their government any more, and that if they speak out they don't have to worry about their whole family being taken, tortured, and murdered.

[brad]

[ QUOTE ]
but I do think it might be appropriate to use on some of their leaders solely for the purpose of extracting information which could prevent horrible attacks which are already planned.


[/ QUOTE ]

glad to hear u r 100% opposed to the torture at guantanamo bay, since they r all goat herder foot soldiers of the taliban; leadership of al kida and taliban got flown out of kandahar by the US. (AP, etc.)

[MMMMMM]

uh brad...;-)...didn't we discuss that "flyout" before? It turned out that other military personnel (Pakistani?) were given permission to vacate but these foreign miltary personnel ended up taking a bunch of Taliban or al Qaeda with them. Also, it wasn't a US plane that was used, it was Pakistani(?) plane. So wherever you are getting that information...beware, it smacks of spin. The US didn't fly them out period. Spin bastards (propagandists;-)) at work and you just swallow their lines;-)

[brad]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it wasn't a US plane that was used, it was Pakistani(?) plane.

[/ QUOTE ]

20k people. lots of planes. US admits direct involvement. whether active duty US crews flew US military cargo aircraft is unknown.

[MMMMMM]

Wow you are susceptible to vague innuendo--the spinmeister conspiracy theorists get you pretty easily don't they?;-)

Sure the US was involved but the planes weren't US planes, as far as I recall from our previous discussion. The US granted authority for a significant airlift of Pakistanis, but the bad guys were slipped on board by the Pakistanis amidst the confusion. At least that's how I recall it.

If you want to look it up on a somewhat neutral news site feel free, but the US DID NOT airlift these guys out. Anything else is just innuendo (at least as I remember the topic).

[brad]

well in any case thats not the main point. the main point is that the leadership of taliban and al kida got away.

the guys who have been tortured for what? 18 months? are the equivalents of privates in the army (ok, hey a few might be sergeants or lt. level, better keep torturing them in case they have tactical info)

[MMMMMM]

Are they really being tortured?

A major problem with these nuts is that they are not really like privates in an army, even if their rank could be considered equivalent. Privates in an army would stop fighting at some point if their leaders or countries lost the war. These guys are determined to get to Islamic Paradise and take as many infidels with them as they can, until all the world is of God and at peace, ruled under Islamic law.

[Mark Heide]

M,

I agree. Having the Iraqi's put him on trial would be much better.

Mark

[brad]

[ QUOTE ]
Are they really being tortured?


[/ QUOTE ]

i see. well if you dont think theyre being tortured youre not well informed. (eg,check amnesty international among others for 3rd party stuff)

btw theyre setting up execution chambers there (cuba) so when guys are tried in secret in summary military courts and found guilty they can be killed. so i guess technically can be officially called a death camp now.

[ QUOTE ]
Privates in an army would stop fighting at some point if their leaders or countries lost the war. These guys are determined to get to Islamic Paradise and take as many infidels with them as they can, until all the world is of God and at peace, ruled under Islamic law

[/ QUOTE ]

a similiar argument was made about the vermin in europe. they were subhuman and simply had to be gotten rid of. (they were corrupting society)

[MMMMMM]

Brad, similar it is not. Al-Qaedans would tell you freely they think things like this and are at war with the modern, Western, infidel world. It's not that they're of a certain race, but that they are of a relentless and violently aggressive ideology. They's nuts, plain and simple, and they mean to attack us and destroy us and they even say so. It's not at all similar to Hitler saying the gypsies and Jews and negros should be exterminated.

[andyfox]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you rubbing it in Andy? I admitted it was a bad idea.

I shot myself in the foot, so can I now lick my wound in some peace. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

No, I didn't intend to rub it in. With the new format, the newest messages are at the top, instead of at the bottom, so I am still a bit confused as to who posted what and when. My usual mental state.

-Zeno


[/ QUOTE ]

[Zeno]

However muddled my first post was or taken to be, at the base were the points you touched on about Ceausescu.

The revengefulness is probably not helpful or the gross public dispaly but some form of public closure and healing would be a healthy thing for most Iraqi's after the trauma of Saddam's regime. Possibly a trail of Saddam (if he is every caught alive) by the Iraqi’s would provide some of this needed closure (others may have already mentioned this).

And with that, I’m done with this thread.

-Zeno

[Cyrus]

"In this case it is critical that the Iraqi people know that Saddam and his sons are truly dead or imprisoned. A poll taken shows 1/3 of the Iraqis believed the photos of dead Qusay and Uday to be fake."

Polls also indicate that a similar fraction of Americans believe that Iraqis were amongst the 9/11 terrorists, that Saddam actually used WMDs during the recent war and that the WMDs have been found. All those beliefs are totally false.
What would you recommend we do to rectify those beliefs and educate the American people?
(In your answer please use exactly the same logic and strategy that dictates the public display and parading of the two dead corpses.)

--Cyrus

PS : I noticed you used the term "it is critical". Hmmmm. Things must be way tougher than you dare to admit if displaying or not displaying two bodies in public is a critical factor for the campaign. Think about it.

[MMMMMM]

One is more critical than the other--obviously.

And yes, things are very tough for the Iraqi people: the scars and fears left from decades of systematized state terror, rape, torture and murder do not disappear overnight. They need to know that this threat is truly gone, so that they do not need to fear Saddam's return to power and the torture/execution of all who spoke out against him or acted against him during recent months.

I think you are just playing the devil's advocate in your last post.