$22 PP - Hooks with an A on the flop and again on the turn

[playtitleist]

Limping pocket Jacks from EP is a usual play for me. When he raised the turn, I was sure he had an Ace. Now I am not so sure. I could have called his raise and seen the river hoping to check it down. Folding was prolly really bad.

Help!


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1230)
MP3 (t725)
CO (t465)
Button (t1110)
SB (t535)
BB (t770)
Hero (t1590)
UTG+1 (t815)
MP1 (t760)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t95</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls t95, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t340) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t175</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t340 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t855

I think he has a PP and the second ace just bolstered his courage. You will find 55 66 here probably because there was no PFR.

[tewall]

The Ace on the turn makes it less likely he had one (but this is a moot point.)

You're getting way too good a price to let this go, something like 3 to 1. So you only need a 1 in 4 chance for your hand to be good, and you're probably better than 50/50 here, so you're right that it was a bad fold. Even he did show you an Ace, calling would still be correct.

What? How do you use such bad logic to get to the right answer. Yes, you should call, but the 2nd ace is certainly not a moot point. The fact that it makes villain holding an ace less likely is extremely important. And if villain shows you an ace, there's no way calling is right. You're something like 22-1 to hit and not getting anywhere near the price.

Both of your bets looked like CB's. After your turn bet the pot is bigger than villain's remaining stack - so if he decided that YOU do not have an Ace (which you do not) he may push with any two.

Also - per Gigabet's theory - you MUST call here because if you lose - you will be down to a MEDIAN stack, but still very much alive, but if you WIN - you'll have more than double chips than most of the rest, and if you know what to do with it - it is certainly worth the risk.

[AceRat138]

I think it is a good fold. There is no way you are 50/50 to win this pot. The problem with the play is not with the fold/call on the end, however, it was the bet of 175 on the turn. What could CO possibly have to call 95 on the flop if he wasn't holding an Ace? There are no draws and he limped in late position which suggests something like Ax. Yes, he could have something like 89s or 9Ts, but an Ax is far more likely. After the call on the flop the Hero should have given up and checked the turn and folded to a bet by the villian. This maybe weak tight, but with the blinds still at 15-30 you don't want to lose 500 chips. Fold the turn and keep your chips for a better situation.

[playtitleist]

I am convinced I f'd this one up.

As added thought, what about the fact that he DID NOT push the flop? I think he pushes any ace with his stack. Then, as said before, when the 2nd Ace came he was pretty confident I didn't have one, so he was free to push his 9 or PP or whatever he has made. Can a $22er hold back from pushing this flop with an Ace (or a set) with this chip stack?

[playtitleist]

[ QUOTE ]
After the call on the flop the Hero should have given up and checked the turn and folded to a bet by the villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have done this had any card OTHER than Ace (or J) hit the turn. When it did, I didn't think he had an Ace, so I could bet him out representing trips myself. His all-in surprised me, and I was then sure he had it.

I'll respond to your post because you express "preservation" point of view - not necessarily reply to YOU.

I believe your advice is CORRECT if -
1) You are playing one tourney at a time, and
2) The outcome is significant to your bankroll (i.e. you NEED to finish ITM)

If you are 4-tabling (or more) and can take the variance - call. It will pay often enough.

[ QUOTE ]
Can a $22er hold back from pushing this flop with an Ace (or a set) with this chip stack?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, especially with the set (getting Full House on the turn).

When I call I expect to lose around 80% of the time. When I do - my chances to win the tourney are not tremendously worse. 20% I expect to see K9s or something even less - and win. And then my chances to win are bettr (with 2K+ stack). SO - by calling I stand to lose relatively little, but I stand to gain quite a bit levergae 20% of the time or so. Read the ENTIRE "Gigabet's theory of stack sizes" in MTT Anthology for further discusions on this subject.

Villain would have pushed any ace preflop so call and see a low pocket pair

[11t]

Dude, if you are limping with JJ from UTG why on earth are you betting an ace high flop out of position?

[AceRat138]

My view in the 22s is not "preservation". I play to win. I 6 table the 22's and 22 dollars in no way significantly effects my bankroll. The reason I say this is a check fold is because I feel that the real place where you win money in SNGs is on the bubble or when the blinds have increased to a large percentage of your stack. If you lose 500 you have aproximately 1000 chips, which means that when the blinds hit 50-100 you are going to have to push in order to successfully steal blinds. If you fold here you have 1500 chips which means that you can still successfully steal using a 3xBB+2xlimpers formula. I find that you have a much greater chance of winning the tourament if you opt for the second situation rather than the first. It is much easier to win a tournament going into the high blind levels with a bigger stack. The difference between having 1400 chips and 900 chips on the bubble is much greater than the difference between 1400 and 1800.

[playtitleist]

I was waiting for somebody to ask that. I honestly have no answer for you.

Every step of this hand I played differently than I ever have before (other than the original limp). I always check this flop with an under pair, cause somebody ALWAYS has an Ace at the $11s and $22s. I never bet out on a turn A/K when it pairs the board.

Basically, I never bluff when an Ace hits the board. That's why I did it this time and that's why I posted the hand. I am hoping there is a way to win this hand.

Oh, and I suck at poker.