Bellagio 5diamond Hand

[colson10]

30K starting chips with 50-100 blinds.

I’m around 27K when UTG+1 limps for 100, UTG+2 is a super weak loose donk playing in his 3rd ever tournament (1st and 2nd being the satellites to get into this one), he makes it 500. This is deep into level 1 and while he has been in a number of pots, he has not raised preflop yet. I’m next to act with JJ, I call. Joe Awada, a couple spots behind me calls, Jdags in the SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 limper calls.

2600 in the pot, flop is 664r. Jdags leads out for 1200, limper folds, UTG+2 calls, I call, Awada makes it 2500 more, 3700 total. Everyone folds to me. 2500 to call, 9900 in the pot. I think for a minute, and Awada says, “don’t make me sweat longer than I have to.” I fold.

This is the first time I've played with Awada. He has been the most aggressive at the table so far. He is certainly capable of having nothing here. He can also have many hands with a 6 in it. I wouldn't be surprised if he called in this spot preflop with nearly any two cards. It's also a certainty that he will not just shut down on the turn if I call his raise.

Knowing how the hand turned out, raising the flop the first time around looks like a good idea, of course. Should I have been able to see this? When I called the flop I wasn't worried about Awada, I was worried about the other two. I wanted to just call the flop so that I could play the next two streets with position.

Thoughts?

[Yuv]

Why not raise PF a bit and try to get HU with the weak-loose player? If he re-pops it, you can get away from a likely AA-QQ. If not, you're playing deep stack poker, with position, against the weakest player at the table.

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Thoughts?

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I like it a lot more after everyone folds than before. With the preflop call, it's hard to put him on a semi-bluff with big overcards because it sounds like he's aggressive enough to raise with that preflop.

Maybe he has a 6, but he is equally likely to have a 4, if you use the same rationale for the 4 as you do for the 6. Could be A4s or A6s.

More than likely he is on some other pair smaller than yours, maybe 5's, 7's or 8's.

I have a hard time letting the Jacks go here. I also consider reraising to say "the turn isn't going to be free either." I'd hate to cold call and then see an Ace or King come on the turn. But I don't know.

Look forward to seeing the results and other comments.

[MLG]

I like how you played it. There are so many things that can go wrong if you raise with the action in front of you that I hate building a big pot. If Joe picks a spot where 3 people have shown interest to run a play then the pot is his.

[colson10]

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Why not raise PF a bit and try to get HU with the weak-loose player? If he re-pops it, you can get away from a likely AA-QQ. If not, you're playing deep stack poker, with position, against the weakest player at the table.

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I agree that this a reasonable idea. Of course I like the idea of having position on a weak player HU. But he hadn't shown any aggression yet, so I thought it was way too likely that he had a bigger pair. I also figured that if I flopped a set he might go off for his whole stack with an overpair. And from seeing how he busted this was definitely true. His bustout hand was pretty funny so I'll detail it.

5 limpers for 200 to him on the button, sitting with about 25K. He fiddles with his chips a bit, obviously thinking about raising. He ends up limping behind. I complete from the SB, BB checks. 8 ways to the flop, KK2r. checks to Jdags in MP who bets 1K, folds to button who makes it 3K, I fold, BB makes it 9K, everyone folds back to the button who asks how much it is to raise again. He min raises to 15K, with 9Kish behind, BB calls. Turn is 7, BB leads out all in, Button obviously doesn't like where he is, but throws his last chips in. KJ for BB, AA for button. No help for him on the river.

[colson10]

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Look forward to seeing the results.

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As I said in the original post, I folded. There is no way I can just call his raise. I will face a huge bet on the turn and will essentially be playing for my whole stack here.

[LearnedfromTV]

*Disclaimer that this above my buyin level.*

I would lean toward reraising preflop, because your call heads you into a multiway pot most of the time, assuming the good players at the table read the raiser like you do (and it sounds like they would).

You ask if you should have raised the flop the first time - maybe, but I think Awada can still pretty easily read you for the mid+ pair you have and come over the top anyway without a 6. As the first caller you're the one least likely to have a 6, making it easier for someone else to represent one to you, especially once you've shown flop strength (which is often a means of sniffing for greater strength, as you imply).

The thing that strikes me about this hand is that the raiser only called the flop bet. So even though he's loose, he probably on the way to folding his overcards to a raise, and so what looks like a bad spot to bluff for Awada is actually a pretty good one - it's a pseudo protected-pot plus anyone who calls is going to be on the defensive, and it doesn't cost him much relative to the pot.

If you call and check the turn, you are probably facing a sizeable bet with a wide range that becomes tougher to play against if an overcard hits. If you reraise with the intention of not putting any more in the pot, he can call and take it away from you a lot of the time, because he's still pretty sure you don't have a 6 and he has position. If you reraise with the intention of playing for your stack, you lose your stack when he has a 6 and don't get much more when he doesn't.

I think I fold because I can't find a good way to continue, even though I would like to.

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Look forward to seeing the results.

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As I said in the original post, I folded.

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D'OH!!

[Annulus]

Do you play this hand the same way verse Joe in a stars $150 tourney? Im just curious.

[colson10]

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I like how you played it. There are so many things that can go wrong if you raise with the action in front of you that I hate building a big pot. If Joe picks a spot where 3 people have shown interest to run a play then the pot is his.

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What do you think about running a play here if you're in Awada's spot? I know this depends on too many factors for you to really answer, but I wish I was good enough to do this.

I feel like every time I've tried to run a play in the last handfull of big live tournaments I've played, I've failed. After playing a few of the 5diamond events, tight and aggressive seemed to be the way to play. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately but am feeling very unsure about. It always depends on your table, but every table I had in all those events was so loose aggressive that if I caught cards or made some pairs I'd get some chips. Everytime I got out of line, I got caught. But maybe I'm just not picking my spots well enough.

There was a hand from the 5K event where EP opened for 200, LP called, and I just called in the BB with JJ (6K stack). Flop is 722, EP leads small for like 300, LP makes it 800, I make it 2100 and they both fold. I think I played the hand fine, but I wish I was good enough to make that move with air.

Sirio and I talked about TAG vs LAG in these tournaments and he seemed to agree that TAG generally works better these days, with all the LAGs out there. but I'm still unsure about it all.

[colson10]

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Do you play this hand the same way verse Joe in a stars $150 tourney? Im just curious.

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This hand plays out much differently in an online tournament. We're nearly 300 blinds deep in this situation, with a slow blind structure that can reward conservative play. That is not something you encounter playing online.

[Annulus]

Agreed. Bad comparison on my part. While, this tourney is obviously way out of my league. I mostly play $50-$250 online mtts, and some even lower limits. If this hand came up in my online MTTs in a very similar fashion, im sure my donkey self would reraise all in verse Joe. Because i'm not afraid to bust out.

While Joe could very well have you beat here, he also could just be making a move using his image and position. Preflop he prolly reraises with AA, KK. So QQ is the only hand I see what you are behind too. And I think him having an overpair to the flop is very possible also (77-1010). But more likely I think he's making a move.

[MLG]

There are so many things that can go wrong for awada its scary in that spot that the concept of it boggles my mind. Dags needs to not have a monster, and the raiser cant have AA/KK/QQ/JJ because he is never folding, and you have to have something marginal, and not something slowplayed. Yeah he's in good position, but man I don't know. Then again, the pot is big and he's risking comparatively little to win it. I cant run those moves live yet, and i think in the current climate (in any climate really) there's not much place for them. Guys dont know how to play deepstacks so the money is really in trapping them I think.

[iMsoLucky0]

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There are so many things that can go wrong for awada its scary in that spot that the concept of it boggles my mind. Dags needs to not have a monster, and the raiser cant have AA/KK/QQ/JJ because he is never folding, and you have to have something marginal, and not something slowplayed. Yeah he's in good position, but man I don't know. Then again, the pot is big and he's risking comparatively little to win it. I cant run those moves live yet, and i think in the current climate (in any climate really) there's not much place for them. Guys dont know how to play deepstacks so the money is really in trapping them I think.

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This has a concept I have been exploring in my mind and through discussions lately. So many of my tables lately in these big buyin live events have been insanely LAGGY. The only way I've been able to get chips at all is playing conservatively and getting value out of my winning hands. Of course, the table dynamics matter so much and I'm looking at a small sample size here, but it can't be discounted that there are a ton of LAGs out there now that dont fold.

I mean, I've had so many hands where MP will open to 5x the BB, the SB will reraise to 15x the BB, MP will just call. Flop will come like K83 and there is some action, etc. and then they turn over their cards and they've got A3 and KT?!? I mean, some of these players are just crazy and I really think it's hard to do anything but just wait for hands to get their chips, or wait for them to bust themselves.

If awada was making a move here, that's just amazing. I do often wonder if these guys are actually making plays in these spots or if they have hands. That's what makes them so good. Even us, as good players, can't figure them out. I mean, I would like to say that they always have it in spots like these, but there's no way for us to know.

Maybe Joe will stumble on this thread and give us some input.

[MrLob]

For what its worth I play in these type events sometimes and agree totally with MLG and LuckyO. I think this is a very tough spot for Awada to be making a move, and if he is, he is taking such an a big risk that he probably deserves the reward of the pot. I think your preflop call set you up for this type of action, so although I think the call was fine, you now need to follow through with a fold to this type of action. A preflop raise had some danger as well, but I think it was preforable in comparison to inviting JDags and Awada into the pot. I think TAG is better at this spot in the tourney and a fold is tough but waranted.

[betgo]

What's going on with a 5-way raised pot? Is this a $20 tournament on Party?

[MLG]

lol, when was the last time you played with a 300 BB stack? It allows for profitably playing a lot more hands if you're good, and thinking you can profitable play a lot more hands if you arent.

[betgo]

If Awada has a 6 or 44, why not flat call? If he has QQ-AA, why didn't he reraise preflop?

[woodguy]

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If Awada has a 6 or 44, why not flat call?

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Underfulls and trips are not great hands to slow play in multiway pots.

Also, if you think you have best hand, its a good time to build the pot, hopefully someone's AA or KK is stuck to their hand and they can't let go.

Regards,
Woodguy