10/20 SB Hand 3

[Drontier]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[TomBrooks]

Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

[Kyle]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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That just aint going to cut it.

[ArturiusX]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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What are you doing here?

[Kimpan]

I play it the same

[Entity]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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What are you doing here?

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He did this in the high limit section for a while too. At the time I thought he was trying to give good advice but I don't think so anymore.

Reads? What makes you think the BB wasn't raising a flush draw then betting the turn because it was HU? Against high aggression, I'd be tempted to call down. Against low aggression, I fold.

[baronzeus]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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I agree, but open folding is probably better.

[TomBrooks]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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What are you doing here?

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Avoiding spewage.

[baronzeus]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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What are you doing here?

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Avoiding spewage.

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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read the preflop action.

[TomBrooks]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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What are you doing here?

[/ QUOTE ]Avoiding spewage.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read the preflop action.

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I looked at it again. A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif is not so great because of the two diamond flop. Holding a diamond here would make this hand considerably more attractive to continue with.

I didn't consider the BD straight in my first assessment though. That adds some value - say about 1 out? I'm not even sure if you can give it that much because of the two diamond flop.

I'm giving about 3 outs to the overcards. Spiking a Queen puts three to a straight on the board, or could make BB two pair as could an Ace.

That being said, I'm going to up my assessment of having about three outs to about four and say calling the flop raise with the intention of check/calling a blank turn looks reasonable.

[DMBFan23]

they raised preflop, you three bet. I think you should up your assessment to having the best hand often enough to make checking the flop a bad move.

[TomBrooks]

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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What are you doing here?

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He did this in the high limit section for a while too. At the time I thought he was trying to give good advice but I don't think so anymore.

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And at that time, in response to a pompous and obnoxious reply you made to one of my posts stating something along the lines of I didn't play well enough to deserve to be able to post there, I told you that I wasn't opining because I was certain my opinions were great as much as I wanted to offer my best guess, subject it to peer review, and thereby hopefully improve my game away from the table.

You responded to me then by literally acknowledging you acted like an ass (your words, not mine) and pledged to cut it out. Now on my first foray back into a higher limit forum than I usually post in to test my understanding of the game, you start in on me again.

What are you, a stalker?

[ArturiusX]

How about you just lurk for a bit instead of posting, or write your response down on a text file and see how it measures up?

Because, check-folding here is pretty bad in most games, but horrendous here, because we often have the best hand and people will very very often push at us with air. Aggression is rife, and almost meaningless, it must be addressed in the context of the board.

[TomBrooks]

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How about you just lurk for a bit instead of posting, or write your response down on a text file and see how it measures up?

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As a matter of fact, I was just looking at Drontier's SB Hand 4 and felt I could offer a good idea, but I decided not to as my last several ideas have not been looked upon too favorably and I felt like I had recieved enough critique to think about for a while.

So I will follow your suggestion for a while, Art. But how would you like to have a little fun with it?

If Drontier agrees to go along, I propose you and I, or anyone who wants to play and I, privately write down our recommendations to each of his 5 SB hand posts and this hand (and/or some other combination of hands I'll let you pick) and we exchange them via PM. Then we ask him (or whoever) to tell us the results of each hand, we determine how much money you and I would have each made or lost playing, (we may have to estimate/predict what Villian would have done in response to what we did) and we post the results here.

Want to make it even more fun? If I lose, for one month or 30 posts, whichever comes last, I won't post on this forum and I'll use whatever avatar the winner makes me use. If I win, the winner sports the avatar I give him for one month/thirty posts, whichever comes last.

[ArturiusX]

Edit: Not sure why I bothered. Your idea is to results based and isn't conclusive, as a poster with 3000 to your name you should have worked that out already.

CO is on a steal with worse hands a good percentage of the time, this flop missed a lot of hands, why give them control, why not use our folding equity? And what spewage? bet/calling isn't spewage, check-raise an out isn't spewage, I don't get what you're saying.

[baronzeus]

First of all, your challenge is stupid. I could tell you how much money he would have won or lost without the results, because it's pretty obvious in all of the hands.


Second of all, I don't think you should stop posting. However, there seems to be a certain lack of understanding that you have about shorthanded poker. Saying things like "checkfold the flop" after he 3bet preflop is pretty much wrong 100% of the time, regardless of the result.

Instead of stopping posting altogether, keep your posts in SSHUSH until you get a better understanding of the game and move up in limits. That will keep you the grief of dealing with all the people here and will also give you a chance to learn.


Anyhow, good luck. I hope you take my advice.

[Drontier]

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I could tell you how much money he would have won or lost without the results, because it's pretty obvious in all of the hands.

[/ QUOTE ]Really? I didn't lose them all :P.

[TomBrooks]

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First of all, your challenge is stupid. I could tell you how much money he would have won or lost without the results, because it's pretty obvious in all of the hands.

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I thought some of the posted hands were pretty obvious also. Thats also why I considered myself a favorite to pwn most any of the superlags who might have accepted my challenge. Anyway, no takers. Just a bunch of guys (some of which) pass out grief while they justify to themselves with their special secret knowledge that outsiders are incapable of understanding how to lose more money.

Haha. Oh yeah, let me go back to SSSH so the SuperAggro Gang can BS each other about how to spew chips like every one they spend makes their penis grow larger without the interruption of a possible reality check.

Don't tolerate the new guy. Don't just critique his posts or disagree in a civil manner. Bust his chops so he goes away. Haha. Oh, I got to respect that so much. Yeah, stay here in your fantasy world undisturbed.

[baronzeus]

You need to understand a few things.


IT'S EASY TO DECIDE WHAT HE SHOULD HAVE DONE AFTER YOU SEE HOW HIS OPPONENT REACTS. SEEING THAT HE GOT RAISED ON THE FLOP AFTER 3BETTING PRE DOESN'T MEAN HE SHOULD CHECK, BECAUSE A LARGE PORTION OF THE TIME HIS OPPONENT CALLS OR FOLDS AND HE WINS THE HAND.

And SECOND, you will not get any respect on this forum until you start respecting others. My original post was made with the best of interest and was very kind and gentle. Your reply was stubborn and basically retarded.


There are certain "winning strategies" that exist in LHE that you just don't have yet. A lot of the posters here make 50K+/month using these same winning strategies. If winning is a goal for you you should listen to these people instead of arguing with them regardless of how much reason they give you.

PS check/folding this flop is worse than coldcapping 72o.

[ALL1N]

Don't be defensive. These guys are good players, and while they may or may not have larger cocks than you (prolly not, you look pretty bulky in your pic), you would be well advised to listen up, I kid you not.

[Lmn55d]

Tom, if you think that you are right and the 98% of posters on MHUSH/SSHUH who would disagree are wrong, then you might want to find a different forum to read and learn from.

I don't think you can learn from one where all the posters play poorly.

[TomBrooks]

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Tom, if you think that you are right and the 98% of posters on MHUSH/SSHUH who would disagree are wrong

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Right about what? I haven't specifically told anybody their suggestions were wrong or inferior to mine. Some people disagreed with my suggestions. I posted some of my reasoning on why I thought a particular play was appropriate. This is a forum for debate, right? I have no problem with that.

[Lmn55d]

You have posted advice in several pieces of advice in various threads recently that basically every poster in this forum would deem "horrible." Many of these guys are very big winners in shorthanded poker games.

I myself have posted bad advice in the past. No big deal, this is a forum for debate and exchange of ideas. But continuing to argue, calling everyone "superlags," and trying to initiate dumb challenges in order to prove the validity of your advice is very very stupid and annoying.

[TomBrooks]

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Don't be defensive. These guys are good players, and you would be well advised to listen up, I kid you not.

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Hi Allin,
I know there are many good players here, that's why I came here. And I have no problem having my posts critiqued, that's mainly why I posted them.

What I do have a problem with is some amateur psychologist in a green suit following me around and posting negative insinuations or comments about my motives and intentions. Note again this is not the first time he did it, although it was in a different forum the last time. My response to him at that time was more measured. Apparently he interpreted that as a signal of my aquiesence that he should try it again. It seemed to me he could use a clearer message that I have a fairly low tolerance for taking crap. I define crap as personal insult or character assasination, not hand critique.

There were also a couple of other instances from a couple of other posters in a couple of other threads in the last couple of days and one from about a month ago in this forum that were of a personally insulting nature. If my reaction in this thread seems out of proportion to the perceived offence, it might be because I am reacting to the cumulative effect of all of the above.

However, these were all isolated instances and do not reflect my feelings about the attitudes or postings of the majority of this forums participants. Yes, I suppose I became overly defensive. To the extent I criticized everyone or anyone with too broad a brush, I apologize.

Again, all I want to do here is improve my poker game and enjoy interacting with the other forum participants. I want to post my take on some hands, compare it to the other ideas, consider any critique that comes my way, and have a nice day.

Cheers.

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Check/fold the flop. Check and peel is iffy but not terrible probably.

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If you have 0 disconnects left, and knew 100% that you were going to lose connection on the turn or river, then check/folding would be correct. Even then, requesting more disconnects and playing the hand NORMALLY would be a better option.

[MattC]

let's discuss what we should do in the hand more please /images/graemlins/smile.gif.
can someone tell me why folding the turn is best when a diamond doesnt come?

[DMBFan23]

Hi Tom,

as someone who sucks at poker, let me tell you what's worked for me when I'm posting above my bankroll. a lot of times when I post and I'm not sure, but I think I'm getitng the concept, my post will more resemble something along the lines of

"I think this is best, here are the reasons. is that sucky?"

and the replies will look something like

"yes I'd rather light money on fire"

or

"no that's basically the right concept, but notice the fact that the board is XYZ instead of ZGS makes it more correct"

then repeat until more answers resemble the latter. inquisitive answers are more on the tone of "learn me something" as opposed to "this is the way it is." a lot of posts in a lot of forums are of the "this is the way it is" style, and there are always arguments about whether it detracts from good discussion. but I digress.

kiddo explained it very well IMO in his coaching intro, when he says

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Lets say a coach look at a hand that u didnt know how to play, you give him 2 good reasons to call and 2 good reasons to raise.

The coach: "You should raise this turn" and then give you 2 more good reasons to raise.

You think for a while and comes up with two more reasons not to raise.

He then comes back with a new answer: "Yep, you are right, there are as good reasons to raise as to call, it sure looks like a coinflip".

Now you can say: Well this is a bad coach, he gave me the wrong answer, I gave him the right answer and in the end there was no answer at all, I could do whatever in this hand, I dont need a coach to tell me that.

But what really happend is that you started with 4 conflicting arguments and ended up with 8 conflicting arguments. And that makes all the difference in the world if u want to become really good at poker. In the next hand you play maaybe you will get 5-3 instead of 2-2 in arguments.



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if your posts promote that style of discussion, then you could learn even more from the hand than that specific line for that specific situation against that specific opponent.

anyways, that's just how I roll. all this advice is worth what you paid for it

peace,
-Kevin

[ArturiusX]

Let's not over-analyse this.

This is the big boys forum, and you really need to play these limits to post here. Yep, I'm being elitist, absolutely. We're here to help each other, but not to babysit. The reason why posters are taking offence is because some of your posts give completely terrible advice, and its random clutter. We're intelligent minds, and we need brainstorming sessions to be as easy to read as possible.

This is not a help forum. The help forum is microlimits, maybe SSSH. This is the elite players whom want to make the big bucks, and need to have a very elitist posting style in order to achieve that slight +EV needed to break those important BB/100 barriers.

These forums won't turn you into a good poker player, they won't teach you new concepts (except a few nice threads), and they sure as hell won't make you smarter. But what they will do is nail down small +EV decisions that creep that winrate up, and thats what these guys use it for.

So to sum it up, look at my original post of 'what are you doing here?'. I'll tell you now, you're in the wrong place, what you need isn't what you'll find here. Everyone here will tell you that.


Posting does not make you a good player ever.

[Drontier]

hell yea, im an elitest