$33 Party, QQ post flop.

[johnnybeef]

5th hand in I believe, villain has put money in 2 of them, and doesn't appear to be tricky (but then again that is tough to tell from two hands).



Seat 1: Unibasjoe ( $770 )
Seat 2: Iris62 ( $800 )
Seat 3: JohnnyBeef ( $775 )
Seat 4: cjcorvers ( $960 )
Seat 5: torysad ( $800 )
Seat 6: Troya15 ( $635 )
Seat 7: mcdznuts ( $730 )
Seat 8: Fuglsang7 ( $1060 )
Seat 9: PELEXXX ( $800 )
Seat 10: DrCEast ( $670 )
Trny:18475875 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JohnnyBeef [ Qh Qd ]
Troya15 calls [15].
mcdznuts folds.
Fuglsang7 folds.
PELEXXX folds.
DrCEast folds.
Unibasjoe folds.
Iris62 folds.
JohnnyBeef raises [55].
cjcorvers calls [45].
torysad folds.
Troya15 calls [40].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, Ad, Td ]
cjcorvers checks.
Troya15 checks.
JohnnyBeef checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
cjcorvers checks.
Troya15 checks.
JohnnyBeef bets [125].
cjcorvers folds.
Troya15 calls [125].
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
Troya15 checks
JohnnyBeef ??????

[pineapple888]

Bet the flop, fold to check-raise.

Check behind on the river, it's highly unlikely that you will get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold.

[tewall]

I think you're ahead here much more than behind (when called), so I'd value bet. If raised, I'd call. If someone outplayed me by trapping, then good for them, but most of the time I'd expect to see a smaller pair (or maybe a bluff with two diamonds). Someone who has you beat would have most likely been betting to protect against the flush draw.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, fold to check-raise.

Check behind on the river, it's highly unlikely that you will get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting this flop is terrible.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Check behind on the river, it's highly unlikely that you will get a worse hand to call

[/ QUOTE ]

What does JT-KT do? How likely are these hands?

[ QUOTE ]
or a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok this is true

[valenzuela]

I would bet 60 preflop, but thats is so unimportant.
I check the flop, I would check the turn, and I would check the river.
On youre line I dont see how betting the river is more +ev than checking

Well-played to the river. A thin value bet to the tune of 75 into 400 pot sounds appropriate.

[valenzuela]

A ten might call the turn bet..u know " he is bluffing , he has positon, I aint folding my middle pair".
But I dont see anyone with half a brain calling with a ten after TWO bets, I mean he raised preflop, bet the turn, and bet the river. I dont know whats the skill on the 33s, but from what ive read here they are quite tougher than the 22s.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Well-played to the river. A thin value bet to the tune of 75 into 400 pot sounds appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Villian will call 75 with a ten he will also call 125-150.

[RobGW]

Why?

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, fold to check-raise.

Check behind on the river, it's highly unlikely that you will get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting this flop is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's not like there are any flush or straight draws out there, and there's absolutely no way you could have the best hand here and actually take down the pot, right?

It must be those reverse implied odds again that I don't understand, and that are so critical to doing well at the low buyin tables.

Check-behind

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, fold to check-raise.

Check behind on the river, it's highly unlikely that you will get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting this flop is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop is far from terrible. Man where does everyone here get their whacked out ideas about things like this? It's not mandatory to bet the flop but to call it terrible is ridiculous. You are giving both players the license to blow you out of the pot by betting the turn with nothing, and or the river. Not to mention they might end up beating your hand with a free card.

If you bet and he check-raises all in what is your action?

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's not like there are any flush or straight draws out there, and there's absolutely no way you could have the best hand here and actually take down the pot, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty lousy flop for my hand because of the afformentioned things. I'd say the chances of getting checkraised here are fairly high.

[curtains]

Id say the chances of getting checkraised are not that high, although they arent that small either.

Yes with a ten he will call even more than 150, but I also want a call from a donk who just wants to see what I have or has a small pocket pair. I am looking for quantity of 75s to supercede the return I will get from the 150 call from a ten. Make sense?

You shouldn't be trying to get a better hand to fold with a bet.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet and he check-raises all in what is your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, it's missed diamonds as often as it's an ace.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes with a ten he will call even more than 150, but I also want a call from a donk who just wants to see what I have or has a small pocket pair. I am looking for quantity of 75s to supercede the return I will get from the 150 call from a ten. Make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he called 125 with 77 on the turn he will call 125 on the river nearly always.

[johnnybeef]

Ok, betting the flop isn't terrible, but it isn't the best line either imo.

[johnnybeef]

I think he was asking me, but I tend to fold.

[gumpzilla]

I tend to prefer betting the flop. If this player isn't tricky, do you think he's going to go through the process you presumably want him to go through of "Hmmm, guy in last position bets at pot when nobody has taken a shot, better call with my J5?" I think a T can call you, I think betting the flop can frequently slow down an A on the turn and get you a free river, and if you get popped you probably have a pretty easy fold rather than calling down later on. (EDIT: Missed the diamond draw, which does complicate things. I like the check more after seeing that, but I think I'm still usually betting. Again, if you don't think your opponents are tricky, check-call is a more expected line than check-raise for a flush draw)

The river seems like an easy check behind unless you're convinced that this guy will call with a T. Occasionally I'll bet, gambling on that possibility, but usually I'm checking.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

The river seems like an easy check behind unless you're convinced that this guy will call with a T. Occasionally I'll bet, gambling on that possibility, but usually I'm checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right but sometimes he calls with a T and sometimes he doesn't. But he doesn't ever have a better hand here so why not bet?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Right but sometimes he calls with a T and sometimes he doesn't. But he doesn't ever have a better hand here so why not bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can bet and fold to a raise, fine. I think that a busted diamond draw or a T c/r'ing this river is less likely than a strangely played A or boat. And yes, I see people check those kinds of hands on the river hoping for a c/r more often than one might expect. It is probably the case that the likelihood that he has a T and pays you is higher than the likelihood that he has a big hand and c/r's you, but I think it's reasonably close and so I think the bet is pretty thin. I don't hate it, but most of the time I'm not doing it.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

If you can bet and fold to a raise, fine. I think that a busted diamond draw or a T c/r'ing this river is less likely than a strangely played A or boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree but I think both are so rare that it's a wash, so we should still bet.

[RobGW]

So what are you planning to do when one of them bets out on the turn? Do you just assume he missed his check raise with an A and fold? By checking behind you are inducing a bet from a hand like KT or 88. You'll be folding the best hand too often then. Or do you call down? If he does have the A and missed his check raise you are now donating money to him. By betting this flop, you'll have more info to play the hand out.
Now for the river, he's shown no strength. He has yet to make a bet. He just called PF and on the turn. Since you checked behind on the flop, he's probably thinking you don't have the A therefore his T or PP is good. Especially with 2 A's out there. If he did have an A he probably would have bet the turn. Get the value bet in on the river.

[Elektrik]

My default play in this situation is betting the flop. If C/R I let go, if called I proceed with caution. I don't mind a flop check either.

I value bet the river for a smallish amount (1/3rd - 1/2th the pot) unless OP is very aggressive, in which case I'm fine with a check.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
So what are you planning to do when one of them bets out on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is highly dependent on the card that comes off, but i will likely call.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you just assume he missed his check raise with an A and fold? By checking behind you are inducing a bet from a hand like KT or 88.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, so I am inducing a bluff when I am ahead.


[ QUOTE ]
If he does have the A and missed his check raise you are now donating money to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so I am losing less money when I am behind (as opposed to betting the flop and getting check raised.)



[ QUOTE ]
By betting this flop, you'll have more info to play the hand out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I highly disagree. Betting this flop just adds money when you are behind, and takes it down when you are ahead. You know, there can be a hell of a lot of information in peoples bet amounts. Furthermore, I am in position, and there are cards that can improve my equity that can come off on the turn.

[johnnybeef]

This flop is one that is highly likely to have hit someone. I have position and the option to take a free card. If I bet the flop and get called or checkraised, I will likely be getting all in by the river which is not what I want to be doing when I am behind. By checking the flop, I may give a free card, but it is much more likely that I will come away from this hand with chips to spare after a showdown.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
This flop is one that is highly likely to have hit someone. I have position and the option to take a free card. If I bet the flop and get called or checkraised, I will likely be getting all in by the river which is not what I want to be doing when I am behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not wild about this. If you can acknowledge that getting swung back at on the flop frequently means that you're behind (I agree), why not bet out and fold when you get popped? This will frequently be cheaper than checking down. If you think this flop is really likely to have hit somebody, I don't think I want to plan on calling down this early. I don't think we need to be married to this hand.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
why not bet out and fold when you get popped?

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz it keeps the pot smaller. if he bets the turn then i can negotiate with him how much of my stack i am willing to lose on this hand.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not bet out and fold when you get popped?

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz it keeps the pot smaller. if he bets the turn then i can negotiate with him how much of my stack i am willing to lose on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

But his turn bet is going to be comparable to your flop bet in most instances. Unless you're planning on folding to that relatively frequently - which is fine, but it sounds like that's not what you're after - the final pot is going to be similar, or worse in the case that you call a river bet as well.

[11t]

I'd bet the flop but as played the river is a check.

Betting the river is pretty bad imo, your hand has showdown value.

[11t]

If you bet the flop and he check/raises all in you fold and get dealt the next hand.

[wuwei]

I bet this flop more often than not. However, there's one important thing that beef seemed to hint at and nobody else really dwelled upon. We're looking at an A high flop with a two flush in diamonds, and we hold the Q of diamonds. By checking behind, we guarantee ourselves a chance to spike that two outer for a set (which we miss if the flop is check raised). The fact that we have a diamond is nice because it means our set will not put a flush on the board. In addition, when a diamond does come on the turn we're now drawing to the second nut flush.

[11t]

I need to start playing in more games where people are check/raising the river with missed diamonds on a paired board.

[gumpzilla]

These are all nice things, wuwei, but I think that generally they're going to be somewhat less important to the play of the hand. The stacks aren't deep enough, I would guess, to make the implied odds of stacking an A with a turned set worth the times we get pushed off the best hand on the turn because we didn't bet out on the flop, but I don't want to call down all the way either. I also think the equity we get from the Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is pretty minor, since if a third diamond comes on the turn and it's bet I'm still not sure we can call all that often.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet the flop but as played the river is a check.

Betting the river is pretty bad imo, your hand has showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's a value bet.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I need to start playing in more games where people are check/raising the river with missed diamonds on a paired board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to start playing in games where people check all three streets with top pair.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet and he check-raises all in what is your action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, it's missed diamonds as often as it's an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

betting vs checking the river is debatable, but calling a c/r is gross. you're going to see Ax a lot more often than missed diamonds. it's going to be a big c/r.