Set vs. set [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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12-21-2005, 01:51 PM

So, the other night I played for about 4 hours and made a set 4 times on the flop. All 4 times they ended up getting beaten by a higher set. This got me thinking. Is there ever a point where you should stop betting a set when there are no straight or flush draws on the board? On most of these hands I just kept raising because I figured they had two pair or an overpair or something. What do you think?

Jaran

12-21-2005, 01:53 PM

"If you don't lose a lot with a set..." blah, blah, blah

Give me a read and I might slow down, but not generally.

-Jaran

bravos1

12-21-2005, 01:54 PM

If you don't lose oddles of money when getting beat set over set, especially on a non-coordinated board, you are not playing it right!

NH.. move on ;-)

car ramrod

12-21-2005, 01:59 PM

need to see the hand, probably nothing more you could have done.

Entity

12-21-2005, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"If you don't lose a lot with a set..." blah, blah, blah

Give me a read and I might slow down, but not generally.

-Jaran

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much agree. Watched someone lose 10BB to me HU with set over set last night, that was sick. He should have only lost 8 I think, but it's pretty close.

Rob

12-21-2005, 02:52 PM

Here is one of the hands:

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: degroot is with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, villain calls, degroot calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, villain calls, degroot raises, SB calls, villain 3-bets, degroot caps, SB calls, calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, degroot raises, SB calls, villain 3-bets, degroot caps, SB calls, villain calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, degroot calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

Results in white below: 
villain has 9s 9d (three of a kind, nines).
CO doesn't show.

Xhad

12-21-2005, 03:10 PM

Similar discussion in SSHE (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4184290&page=0&fpart=1&v c=1)

There isn't really a specific point you should slow down if you suspect an overset; it depends on reads which can also depend on the specific board and preflop action. For example, you should be a lot more scared with 22 on a 247x board if an UTG open-limper caps the turn, than if I have 66 and the board is 6KJx and someone who limped after several players caps the turn. This is both because two pair is more likely on the second board, and because even "tricky" players tend not to limp behind with JJ or KK (though I have run into JJ in this exact situation before in B&M's). Similarly an ace-high flop in an unraised pot is a good thing because of potential ace-rag two pair hands.

Generally I slow down only on the river if Villain caps the turn, or gets capped and bets into me anyway, but not before that point unless I have a specific read on that player...but that's in B&M's. In online micros it could be correct to cap the river every time; I don't play them enough to be sure. Again it's really opponent dependent but thankfully it doesn't come up that often.

12-21-2005, 03:15 PM

Thanks for the good points

Xhad

12-21-2005, 03:18 PM

I think you played this hand fine. That flop call/reraise is a very strong move; I can't recall ever seeing that not be a set unless it was a flush draw trying not to knock people out. I'd still cap the flop but I might slow down on the turn 3-bet and I definitely call the river.

bozlax

12-21-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, degroot raises, SB calls, villain 3-bets, degroot caps, SB calls, villain calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, the flop is capped and he bets out when an overcard falls on the turn. Villan didn't raise preflop, so I think AA/KK/QQ is pretty much out. You raise and he 3-bets. Do you think he's playing A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

As somebody said in their post, tho, I think the most you could have saved on this hand is 1BB by not capping the turn.

Eeegah

12-21-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As somebody said in their post, tho, I think the most you could have saved on this hand is 1BB by not capping the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain cost Hero a lot of money by not raising preflop with 99 /images/graemlins/mad.gif

He didn't even flop quads. He sucks.

12-21-2005, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the most you could have saved on this hand is 1BB by not capping the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

kiemo

12-21-2005, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

As somebody said in their post, tho, I think the most you could have saved on this hand is 1BB by not capping the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pretty much thought this exact same sentitment.

If your feeling pretty weak and havent seen table/villian play nuts like this ever you might save another BB by not 3 betting the turn.

Shillx

12-21-2005, 05:30 PM

Interesting hand. Not too complex, but a lot of the stuff that you should be watching for could be hard to catch if you are trying to multitask.

- The flop call-reraise can narrow his range quite a bit. Start it off at 2-pair+ and some big/combo draws (maybe add a big overpair if you know they could do this kind of thing). You can then eliminate hands based on how loose or tight he is. So would he ever limp UTG+1 with a hand like 9-trey or 7-trey? How about 97? You would add in the nut flush draw and maybe a combo draw like T8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

- When he bets the turn, you can get rid of the nut flush draw.* T8 just made a straight so that is a bit worrisome. Really the only hand you can beat here is 97 or maybe a slowplayed AA (assuming he doesn't limp crap UTG+1). Your equity against a reasonable range is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-35% when you allow for some over zealous flush draws and such.

So calling down the turn bet is clearly an option in this spot. Raising and then calling down a 3-bet looks like an option here as well. You at lost at least 1 bb that you didn't need to in this hand, but it is very easy to play a hand this good this way when you don't watch the action carefully and devote your full attention to making good decisions.

Brad

* - This isn't true as you move up as a turn bet is oftentimes the best way to freeze the action when you have a draw. When you call-reraise the flop and then check the turn, it tips off your hand as a draw and good players will jam that street with strong made hands to get the most from you. When you come right out betting, your equity increases in their minds and turns some of their raises into calls. It is kinda a moot point since you capped the flop and he still bet the turn, but it is something to think about.

Xhad

12-22-2005, 06:09 AM

So I got to thinking a bit more about this and recalled a couple B&M hands where I slowed down to suspected oversets; these are basically the two extremes when it comes to how early or how late I ended up slowing down.

Hand 1: Villain is button, I've met him a few times and I know he's at least a halfway decent player, and he's seen me play enough to respect my play. I am the BB with 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

Preflop: Three limps, Villain limps, SB completes, Hero checks. (6 SB)

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero bets, 1 call, Villain raises, Hero 3-bets, caller folds, Villain caps, Hero calls. (15 SB)

Turn: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero 3-bets, Villain caps, Hero calls.

River: 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero calls.

Reasoning: My estimation of Villain as a "decent" player made me very loathe to put him on KK or JJ because he limped behind preflop. He's not stupid enough to have 22 or 88 here. I basically had him squarely on KJ until the river at which point I finally said "If all he has is two pair, shouldn't he be at least a bit afraid of the fact that you are putting in all bets?" I also realized a cap means I'm probably dead but I'm not capable of folding to it. So I call. Since I already mentioned this in my other post in this thread, he did indeed have JJ.

Hand 2: 2-10 spread limit with $1-$2 blinds, technically not a limit game but the two play similarly on later rounds.

Hero is again BB with 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Villain is the button, and I've known him for about 10 minutes now. UTG is a known LAG, everyone else is relatively loose-passive.

UTG limps, 3 limps, Villain raises to $8, SB calls, Hero calls, all limpers call. (Pot: $56)

Flop: 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets $5, Hero calls, UTG raises to $15, 3 folds, Villain raises to $25, SB folds, Hero caps at $35, UTG calls (all-in for $35 exactly), Villain calls. (Pot: $166)

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hero bets $10, Villain raises to $20, Hero calls.

River: (something that's not a 6 or a piece of the board)

Hero checks, Villain bets $10, Hero calls.

Reasoning: As I said in my other post, a flop call/reraise is a strong move. I was willing to go for it here anyway because of the lack of draws on the board, the fact that bets don't double on the turn in spread and the fact that I had at least two players (a maniac and a PFR) who were likely to raise behind me. So I essentially announce my hand on the flop and this guy raises me on the turn anyway? Coupled with the smallish preflop raise (given the size of the pot) I decided I was up against KK more than half the time (I would think even AA has to be a little scared of a limp/cap) so there was now no reason to value bet unless I hit quads.

12-22-2005, 07:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here is one of the hands:

PokerRoom 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: degroot is with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif,3/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, villain calls, degroot calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, villain calls, degroot raises, SB calls, villain 3-bets, degroot caps, SB calls, calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, degroot raises, SB calls, villain 3-bets, degroot caps, SB calls, villain calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, villain bets, degroot calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

Results in white below: 
villain has 9s 9d (three of a kind, nines).
CO doesn't show.


[/ QUOTE ]

I raise the river. i think you lost more by not losing more.... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Edit: I dont cap the river tho, as its possible he was pushing 8T on the flop

Xhad

12-22-2005, 01:29 PM

What range of hands do you put him on that makes it even sensible to raise the river?