($16) AK from the BB

[11t]

2nd hand of tournament, no reads

Blinds are 10/20, we are 9 handed

Relevant Stacks:

MP t1500
Hero in BB t1500 and AKos

Folds to mp who calls, folds to hero who checks.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot is 55

Hero bets 40, MP calls 40

Turn is 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif pot is 135

Hero bets 100, MP calls 100

River is 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif pot is 335

Hero checks, MP bets 100, Hero Calls

Okay so, I didn't want to buld a big pot early OOP with a hand like AK so I just checked to see if I'd hit the flop and maybe destack a limped A-x. Well I hit my ace, but with 2 worrisome cards on the flop. I'm confident he doesn't have AQ due to the lack of an open raise, but weaker aces are possibilities.

Every draw hit on the river and the only ace I beat is A7 and below. I figured my hand does have showdown potential and I can beat a complete bluff so a check/call was the best line for the river but can a case be made for check/folding? Granted getting 3:1 is hard to fold a reasonable holding in general but I was just wondering what people thought.

Anybody play this a little harder? I was using what I like to call "cautious aggression" aka value betting.

[2Fast2Furious]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay so, I didn't want to buld a big pot early OOP with a hand like AK

[/ QUOTE ]

why not? you've got one of the best hands in poker so why are you not raising with one caller and only BB to act? Then doing at least a pot-sized continuation bet on that scary flop? (and folding most likely to a big re-raise)? The way you did it you basically have no idea where u are at until the river.

[11t]

One pair hands like small pots.

Don't get involved in big pots out of position without a dominating hand.

NL HE 101

PS, I think it is funny how willing so many people are to raise/re-raise out of the BB/SB with AK but how unwilling they are to open raise from the CO-1/CO/Button with 77+.

[2Fast2Furious]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get involved in big pots out of position without a dominating hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have t1500 and it's early so even with a 3xbb raise it's not big compared to your stack. I realize you're OOP, but the SB gives you position against the caller for now which you can use to your advantage and I think with BB still to act a raise is definitely in order here with AKo. Am wondering what other posters think. maybe I'm smoking crack here but does anyone not raise here ever??

That's bc AK is a better hand than 77. It's "behind" PPs, but it's still better against the possible range of hands your opponent might be playing. It dominates any ace or king your opponent is playing, and is at worst a coinflip against a pair. 77 can be in far more trouble preflop, and is at best a coinflip. Besides, it's a trickier hand to play postflop after a raise.

EDIT: I also raise 77 here.

[11t]

I raise here a % of the time, I mean just to mix it up but if you are gonna raise here you gotta do it more than 3xbb. 4-6xbb helps reduce their odds to see a flop.

That isn't to say that raising out of the blinds is something you should NEVER do, but not raising out of the blinds here is not a leak imo which you seemed to imply it was in your response.

[bluefeet]

There are both advantages and disadvantages with both PF lines.

Having elected to check behind, I'm looking to check-raise this flop. A lone MP vs just the BB, I think we get a c-bet here quite often.

[11t]

If I dominate any ace or king why do I want them to fold preflop? I want us to hit our hand together and then for him to give me as many chips as possible.

Hence why I checked.

[gumpzilla]

Given that you didn't raise PF, it's going to be pretty hard to figure out what's going on here. I'll just comment that this kind of board can be a disaster for AK, particularly out of position, since there are 1 billion draws, lots of ways for weirdo two pair hands to be out there (any two broadway seems like it's in the limping range of a pretty large number of low buyin SNG players, in my experience), and 88 (EDIT: 77, a middling pocket pair that doesn't actually make a set, is more what I meant.) is less likely to be hanging around and paying you off on these kinds of boards. Your plan of trying to show down relatively cheaply seems good, and is more or less what I'd do.

[11t]

I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better, but given the pf check a bet/3-bet all in is optimal IMO.

That is to say, a c/r is very likely to get villain to fold his hand on the flop or to our inevitable turn push if he does call whereas if he does have an ace (AJ for instance) he is likely to raise me on the flop and I can 3-bet all-in and he may call me.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better, but given the pf check a bet/3-bet all in is optimal IMO.

That is to say, a c/r is very likely to get villain to fold his hand on the flop or to our inevitable turn push if he does call whereas if he does have an ace (AJ for instance) he is likely to raise me on the flop and I can 3-bet all-in and he may call me.

[/ QUOTE ]


I personally think your first statement is incorrect. Had we raised PF, you are quite compelled to continue on this favorable/draw heavy flop. You are not getting a lead behind not nearly as often having taken the lead PF - certainly not enough to risk a free turn card.

Your second point is possible. Viewing your hand, that is not how I interpreted your intent -- I guess maybe I would have found that in your later reply, but speaking from MP's view, I'm glad I didn't /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I don't think you are going to get raised on this flop too often with a weak Ace. A loose+passive Ace-x open limp, is not as likely to pound your flop bet. Furthermore, you led nearly full pot. If you were looking for some form of raise opportunity here on the flop, then a donkish-FD-buying minbet might have sold it a little better. But I still prefer checking into MP here - you'll get your lead more often than you will a raise leading any amount yourself.


Edit: I'm not saying checking PF/leading this flop is not standard. I have no problem with this either. There are risks in looking to c-raise here as well. I'm just saying that the more passive check PF can set you up for c-raise opportunities - which you didn't elect to take here. No biggie.

[2Fast2Furious]

[ QUOTE ]
I also raise 77 here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I probably limp from MP this early and fold to any raise if there's more than one caller ahead of me

I don't like your plan to c/r for two reasons:

1. You raised preflop. Any check here will look highly suspicious.

2. Too many draws. Any broadway has a pair, a gutshot, or both. You need to raise pf, and you need to lead out with a bet. No reason to get tricky here.

[11t]

haha, I never said that I would c/r the flop after raising pf but I think c/r in a situation like this isn't getting max value out of your hand man.

I guess I took a few months off from SNG's and played SH NL exclusively two of the few things I learned were this:

1) Check-raising while deep stacked very rarely the right answer in almost any situation.

2) Value betting is key

If you ask a lot of the better NL cash players how many times they check/raised in the past 100k hands I would ball park the answer at <100. Of course how many of those concepts can be applied to SNG's I don't know, but that is what I am here to figure out.

[2Fast2Furious]

[ QUOTE ]
If I dominate any ace or king why do I want them to fold preflop? I want us to hit our hand together and then for him to give me as many chips as possible.

Hence why I checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause you got a caller and the blinds to steal! AK doesn't magically win every pot for you and gets cracked a lot so I don't want anyone getting a free card.

[11t]

I do not want to steal the blinds here, they are of no importance to me.

The value of raising early on isn't, "stealing blinds" it is to "generate folds".

Two different concepts.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
haha, I never said that I would c/r the flop after raising pf

[/ QUOTE ]

"I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better"
I just wanted to point out that this particular statement is actually a much worse line to consider...had you PF raised, and got called. Not leading on this flop, in this condition would be a mistake

[ QUOTE ]
but I think c/r in a situation like this isn't getting max value out of your hand man.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not. There are more hands that lead behind a check (which we raise over, for sake of arguement) - than there are hands that call both your modest flop+turn leads. Furthermore, the hands that you WANT to a) call your flop+turn lead and/or b) raise your turn lead...are hands that might also incorrectly call/pushover your c-raise

[ QUOTE ]
1) Check-raising while deep stacked very rarely the right answer in almost any situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Regardless of chip structure, there are plenty of conditions (#/type of opponent, texture of board, pot/riase amounts, etc.) that make terminating a hand at the earliest possiblitiy a MUST - I'm a stars guy myself for the record /images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
2) Value betting is key

[/ QUOTE ]
Aaaaaaaaabsolutely. You will not find a bigger proponent of post-flop "value betting". I am completely on board with the giving of incorrect odds, etc. My recommendation for considering a c-raise as an alternative on THIS flop was tied directly to your choice to not raise PF. I understand the 'maximize value' options chosing the lead route (see above)

[ QUOTE ]
If you ask a lot of the better NL cash players how many times they check/raised in the past 100k hands I would ball park the answer at <100.

[/ QUOTE ]
[b]I've never been a cash/ring player - I have no reason to doubt you. But speaking for my game only of course, I'm quite certain I am finding c-raise opportunities more often than once every 10-15 sngs (.1%).

OK, now I'm reeeeeeeeeeeeally late for my 2pm meeting! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[curtains]

The hand is reasonable....folding the river is probably an option but you never know what these guys will turn over, so I dont have a problem with calling either.

[11t]

"I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better" - What I meant is that check/raising would probably induce a bluff more often and get you more chips if you raised pf and c/r the flop than if you c pf and c/r the turn because if he is betting at the flop when I check it is going to be small and he is most likely releasing his hand when I c/r. If I raise pf and he calls and I go to c/r and he bets, he will be betting more chips and when he most likely releases his hand I will have won a larger pot.

However, our miscommunication is that what I should have added is that leading both flops in both scenarios is better than c/ring in either.

And I c/r all the time, but never deepstacked. The C/R is a shallow stack tool that people incorrectly use in deep stacked scenarious IMO.

FWIW if I do c/r when deep stackedit is with a set on an uncoordinated board versus some complete aggressive fool and I c/r the turn when he is pot committed.

[pergesu]

You really should be raising this out of the BB. Don't say "I don't want to play AK OOP." Raise it bigger than you normally would, because you almost certainly have the best hand, but you need to charge your opponent for the privilege of having position on you for the rest of the hand. Make him seriously consider if it's worth it or not.

If he limp/calls with Ax it'll be EASIER to stack him on an ace high flop than when you check. He got involved to hit his ace...so you really think he's going anywhere if you put pressure on him? Nope, he's gladly getting stacked when he pairs his ace - that's why he's involved in the first place. If you pop it to like t75 preflop, you can lead for the pot on the flop, and if he calls there's a pot of t450 on the turn. There you could do something fun like overbet push and force him to make a big mistake.

I go either way on calling the river..probably call since you're getting such good odds. He probably has a big hand (flush is most likely, but maybe he flopped a straight), or crap like a K9 or a small PP. There's no reason for him to bet a marginal hand on the river. Any hand that could win at showdown is going to take it cheap, unless it's quite strong and looking for a VB. Considering that these guys are donks and you're getting better than 4-1 on a call I'm happy to call and pick off a potential bluff.

[11t]

To be honest, I do raise here a good portion of the time with AK but not so often with AQ.

I just don't play by like a set standard of rules where I raise with AK here 100% of the time, you know what I mean?

Very good quote though: "you need to charge your opponent for the privilege of having position on you for the rest of the hand. Make him seriously consider if it's worth it or not."

a blatant raise to me preflop