PL25 - T4 on TTJ42 board. Correct riverbet?

[parre]

I have no real reads, because it's the third hand at the table, though I assume the two players I'm up against are fish:

1) They are sitting with much less than the full buy-in - I have trouble seeing anyone good at PLO doing that.
2) It's PLO25. These tables are full of fish. Unless other factors (ie reads) indicate a players non-fishyness, I assume they are fish.

Anyway. So much for reads. It's my third hand at the table and I'm stuck a massive 25 cents - one freaking big blind - so you could say I'm on tilt or something.

Anyway - now to the hand:

Game takes place at PokerStars.

Table 'Muschi' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: andkan ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 3: MikkelSune ($9.70 in chips)
Seat 4: ROONEY_DIVES ($4.90 in chips)
Seat 5: xxxKirill ($7.75 in chips)
Seat 6: golfjudy ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 7: rudnils ($28.85 in chips)
Seat 8: Butch1221 ($15 in chips)
rudnils: posts small blind $0.10
Butch1221: posts big blind $0.25
Scrub832: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andkan [Ah 5h 4s Th]
andkan: calls $0.25
MikkelSune: calls $0.25
ROONEY_DIVES: calls $0.25
xxxKirill: calls $0.25
golfjudy: raises $0.25 to $0.50
rudnils: folds
Butch1221: calls $0.25
andkan: calls $0.25
MikkelSune: calls $0.25
ROONEY_DIVES: calls $0.25
xxxKirill: calls $0.25

Okay – this is a loose call and I know it. Against better players and/or with deeper stacks, I might fold this. But c’mon, this is PLO25 – people make the sickest (read: dumbest) calls. I can get away cheaply on bad flops, and make a lot of dough on good ones. My opponents often don’t have that ability, therefore loose preflop play. And, when I’m min-raised, I almost start to cry, because I’ll be forced to play a big pot OOP with a crap hand. Or something like that.

*** FLOP *** [Ts Tc Js]

Okay – this flop is either very good for me, or it totally and utterly sucks and has me drawing to three outs, or, worst case scenario – dead (if someone has JJ and someone else is blocking my ten).

Butch1221: checks
andkan: bets $2.95

After it gets checked to me i bet the pot – pretty standard play so far with trips/top kicker. If I’m raised, I don’t know what I’ll do. If it’s the preflop raiser with the short stack, I’ll insta-call. If it’s some other person, I’ll have a think and make a decision that will most likely be based on stack sizes. And probably call, cursing myself when he flips JJ at the river.

MikkelSune: folds
ROONEY_DIVES: folds
xxxKirill: folds
golfjudy: calls $2.95
Butch1221: calls $2.95

Okay – so both call. Is someone slowplaying the dreaded JJ on me? Or am I ahead? Or does someone hold JT? So many questions. So little time. So few answers.

*** TURN *** [Ts Tc Js] [4d]

Well – this is either the single best of the single worst card that could come.

Butch1221: checks
andkan: checks

After Butch checks, I’m thinking I’m in the lead. I have however seen fish slowplay good hands on two streets, so I decide to take it easy and check. The preflop raiser doesn’t concern me as much as Butch, because the preflop raisers range should include hands like AA/KK and the like. However – if Butch is slowplaying a boat, I do not want to committ just yet.

golfjudy: checks
*** RIVER *** [Ts Tc Js 4d] [2s]
Butch1221: checks

Okay – even a fish wouldn’t check the nuts thrice, would he? I also appreciate the three-flush coming, as fish tend to call down big bets with flushes on paired boards. However, there is still the risk of me being beat. I think a bit. Then decide that it would be weak-tight not to bet. Then, I try to decide on the bet amount. The pott is 11.40, Butch has a few cents more than that, the other fish has around 8 bucks.

andkan: bets $11.40

It would feel so [censored] to bet half pot and get called by a naked ten, the T2-boat, a flush or an overpair, besides, if I bet half the pot, I’m committed to call any raises anyway. Therefore I bet full pot.

So. Now my questions:

1) How do you like my line in this hand?
2) Is my thought process way off? Haven’t been grinding out lowlimit on the net for quite a while, and this hand had me questioning my thinking.

Results will follow after some discussion. I generally don’t like posting them right away, because that tends to make the following discussion biased.

[ClaytonN]

I would bet the turn, not pot it but around a half pot to two thirds pot bet would seem appropriate. you can continue to get value of around a $7 bet on the turn and another value bet on the river.

"It would feel so [censored] to bet half pot and get called by a naked ten, the T2-boat, a flush or an overpair, besides, if I bet half the pot, I’m committed to call any raises anyway."

umm, i doubt these hands are calling a full pot. your logic is backward. half pot for value so hands like this actually call you. if better hands stack you, so be it, nobody has given reason for you to believe that your hand is second best, so continue extracting value.

[parre]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn, not pot it but around a half pot to two thirds pot bet would seem appropriate. you can continue to get value of around a $7 bet on the turn and another value bet on the river.

"It would feel so [censored] to bet half pot and get called by a naked ten, the T2-boat, a flush or an overpair, besides, if I bet half the pot, I’m committed to call any raises anyway."

umm, i doubt these hands are calling a full pot. your logic is backward. half pot for value so hands like this actually call you. if better hands stack you, so be it, nobody has given reason for you to believe that your hand is second best, so continue extracting value.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet 7 on turn, that means all-in for one of the players and that the other player has 5 dollars left or so. So extracting value on the river will mean basically the same as checking turn and potting river. I've seen so many sick calls on PLO25 - a few nights ago someone called me with 886xr on a JT9 twoflush board (he potted, i re-potted all-in), I've seen numerous all-in calls (not raises) w/ as little as straights on three-flushed and/or paired boards.

I'd assume the average fish to call with all tens, of course all boats, and maybe the nut flush or something like that. Besides, by just checking turn, in the opponents minds (if they think the way I assume they think) it means that I don't even hade the ten. After all, I HAVE TRIPS OMFG I GOT TO BET seems to be the most common mentality /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'd like your line a lot with full stacks, or with deeper stacks. But, I don't feel that betting 7 on the turn will accomplish something that checking turn and potting river won't. I feel that the same crappy hands call me, as well as the hands that beat me.

[Tilt]

Just bet, bet, bet here. In a raised pot at the 25's when you spike top set on the board with top kicker, then turn a boat, you should be happy to get it all in. They will call you down with much less than an overfull. If you try dodging the bigger hands you will miss all the fish that call you down.

You need not think so much at that level. You'll overthink that game if you are thinking at all.

[Zameus]

I'm very new to Omaha so please read this more as a series of questions rather than comments. Why give AA,KK,QQ,KT,QT,9T,8T, etc. a free card to beat you? Those hands would definitely call a bet on the turn (at least the ones with a 10 and maybe the big pairs at the $25 table) but they probably fold to a large river bet having not filled up (at least the big pairs do). Why not bet when they have incentive to call rather than after that incentive has passed?

I had a similiar hand last night and KK and unfilled trips called my turn bet as well as the small feeler bet I made on the river. They called because having not filled at that point I guess they figured it was worth maybe discovering a bluff? I don't think the Kings would have called anything much bigger than a third of the pot so that is what I bet(he was actually a very large stack at the table so probably not THAT bad). Did I miss out on value here?

[dibbs]

So much thinking it hurts my head. There is a hand converter.

I bet the turn here as well.

[Mempho]

Clayton, do you think a typical $25PLO player lays down a T2 boat here to a half pot bet? Cause I don't.

[ QUOTE ]
Clayton, do you think a typical $25PLO player lays down a T2 boat here to a half pot bet? Cause I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once a typical PLO25 player fills, not much is moving him out of the pot, especially with one card to come and the chance to redraw to a better boat (however slim that chance is).

As to the original poster:

Betting out on the flop is fine. Getting called in two places should send out warning lights, even at this level, unless you have maniac reads on one/both opponents in the hand.

It is entirely possible that the first opponent is approaching this hand from a NLHE mentality, such that he is checking the nuts (or near nuts) no matter what. At least one of your opponents has the case 10. Filling on the turn, you need to bet out and see what is going on. A half pot bet should be sufficient. If you get called on the turn and checked to on the river, I check behind in most cases.

[BluffTHIS!]

Flopping a board set with a higher card also there on the flop and a crowd seeing the flop, is often just a scenario for losing your stack. You want to avoid at all costs playing a big pot in these mulitway situations. Only the straight flush draw present gives you hope that you are not being slowplayed. Even so I would just check the turn, even though risking giving a free card to someone with a T and a higher sidecard to hit, and be prepared to call the bet of one player, if he was not a rock, on the river or make a bet myself if checked to when that deuce came.

[captZEEbo1]

you have backwards logic:
"people make the sickest (read: dumbest) calls" then you check the turn. Make up your mind man. I think you should be value betting like crazy when draws are out there. Also you should really be folding this preflop despite your reasoning. Play these hands in position more. If you find yourself folding too much just add another table or two.

[Lafortezza]

Fold preflop, bet flop, value bet turn, get as much money in on the river as possible. If JTxx or JJxx or something else freaky turns up so be it.
Thank the lord that the river was small and filled the flush draw, I can see you getting paid by ATxx and a flush here.

One reason why you don't want to play hands like this is so you're not facing difficult decisions exactly like this later on in the hand. As you can see, there's much disagreement here as to whether you should be cautious or get as much money in the pot as you can. I'd check it right behind because it smells a little fishy. I wouldn't be surprised if both opponents had you beat, but there's a good chance at least one of them do. I could definitely see the preflop raiser in one of these games saying "holy [censored] I've got 2 jacks I better press the raise button because I'm [censored] horrible."

[parre]

I've been on vacation over Christmas, so unable to reply until then. Thanks for all the replys!

Well, I don't know - I guess it's time for results, or something.

I said the magic Omaha-word: "pot".
Or, I actually slid the slider all the way to the right and clicked "bet", but that's not really relevant.

First player... called. Okay.
Second player... also called all-in. Ergh.

Showdown time then.

I proudly table my huge boat, Titanic-style. But it didn't sink, since one player had the nut flush and the second had the second nut flush. So, they both called my river pot bet with measly little flushed and I laughed all the way to the bank. Or something.

I probably should bet the turn, though. Lately though, I've been having a tough time using 1/2-pot and the like bets on lower level-Omaha. I figure that if I have the best hand, they'll pay off for the full pot, and if I have the worst, I ain't folding, so might as well pot it myself. Don't know if it's good or bad or just obnoxious thinking. The past few weeks was really the first time ever I tried to take a serious approach (read: tried to actually win) on PLO25 - and it worked out pretty good. Up 200USD or so in maybe 30 hours of play total, 1 or 2-tabling.

Oh, then I got drunk and lost my entire money playing high-buyin MTT:s, but that's another story!