100NL : hand series versus tough LAG - help! [Archive]

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cbloom

12-21-2005, 01:33 PM

Villain is a tough LAG, about 70/40, but plays well after the flop. I know for EV I should just leave the table, but I'm trying to get better against these type of players. Anyway, I got destroyed. This is a series of the significant hands played. I'm showing results in all but the last hand so that you can see how he plays various hands. I know I screwed up the last hand, I was tilted and should have just left the table, but I'm curious how people play these other hands and what they put him on the last hand. In particular the AK hands where I have no pair are tough. When I opened raised and bet continuation, he would call down with any pair. Somehow whenever the pot was big he managed to have the best hand, though, against other players as well.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

SB :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($339.52)
BB ($91.50)
UTG ($145.90)
Hero ($92)
Button ($96.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB :#A500AF(Villain)/ posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, SB :#A500AF(Villain)/ (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($9) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $5, Villain calls $5.

Turn: ($19) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $9, Villain calls $9.

River: ($37) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $37

Results in white below: 
Villain has 6c 4c (one pair, sixes).
Hero has Ac Kc (high card, ace).
Outcome: Villain wins $37. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($322.77)
Button ($128.65)
SB ($116.50)
Hero ($100.10)
UTG ($88)
MP ($74.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero raises to $8, CO :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls $6.

Flop: ($18.50) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $9, Villain calls $9.

Turn: ($36.50) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $15, Villain calls $15.

River: ($66.50) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks.

Final Pot: $66.50

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Js (one pair, sixes).
Villain has 3d Qd (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: Villain wins $66.50. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ (6 max, 5 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($344.27)
UTG ($128.65)
MP ($116)
Hero ($100)
SB ($86)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($8.50) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $5, Villain raises to $10, Hero calls $5.

River: ($28.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Villain bets $30, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $58.50

Results in white below: 
Villain has Kc 9c (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Villain wins $58.50. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Button :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($356.37)
SB ($127.65)
BB ($116)
Hero ($100)
MP ($84.50)
CO ($84.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $1.50.
Hero raises to $4, 2 folds, Button :#A500AF(Villain)/ calls $4, 2 folds.

Flop: ($11) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks.

Turn: ($11) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $7, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $18

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Villain wins $18. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ (6 max, 6 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ ($357.17)
UTG ($123.15)
MP ($110)
Hero ($128.40)
Button ($98.50)
SB ($68.80)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Hero calls $1, 2 folds, BB :#A500AF(Villain)/ raises to $4, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($10.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $7, Villain raises to $14, Hero raises to $45, Villain calls $31.

Turn: ($100.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Villain bets $45, Hero calls $45.

River: ($190.50) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $190.50

cbloom

12-21-2005, 04:38 PM

nobody?

wslee00

12-21-2005, 04:48 PM

the villain has a pattern. if he calls your cb that means he has some piece of the flop, so stop firing into the pot unless you pick up something on the turn. He was getting lucky hitting a piece of the flop in your first two hands. I would continue raising my big cards and c-betting the flop no matter what comes out.

I put villain on QJ or AQ on the last hand. You were definitely on tilt that last hand - villain is check-raising here with a good hand.

Morrek

12-21-2005, 04:58 PM

I don't have time to reply to them all one by one now but, generally try to bet more on the flops so your cb's get respect(5 into 9 then 9 into 19 sucks). Also, dont reraise AJo OOP against someone you're uncomfortable playing against, especially when you're only half-poting all the time.

tripp0807

12-21-2005, 05:06 PM

I don't like how you played these hands at all. I think that you should have figured out (as most of us have) that this guy knows when you've got air. You've got bad relative position on him and he's got a good read on you. Why are you firing repeated second bullets with air?

I've got bad PT stats when my hand is "high card" or one pair. You probably do too.

Wait until you've got something against people like this. Fire a weak continuation bet and hope he raises. Call, and check raise the turn.

Don't keep playing with air. It's got lousy showdown value.

cbloom

12-21-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the villain has a pattern. if he calls your cb that means he has some piece of the flop, so stop firing into the pot unless you pick up something on the turn. He was getting lucky hitting a piece of the flop in your first two hands. I would continue raising my big cards and c-betting the flop no matter what comes out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is mostly true, but he could also call the flop with weak draws or overs and then would always bet if I later checked. I guess that means if I hit the flop big I can bet it, then later check-raise. Certainly if I showed him that I would c-bet and then check-fold the turn, he would jump all over that.

Should I avoid playing any pots with him OOP?

cbloom

12-21-2005, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't keep playing with air. It's got lousy showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So open raise AK, and then just check-fold the flop with a whiff? Somethinge like 66% of the time I still have the best hand, but I guess it's not putting my stack in on.

Kyriefurro

12-21-2005, 05:11 PM

I didn't need to look at the results to see the same thing villain sees. You're bets are WAY too weak on every street. They're just not convincing. As a result, villain can tell right away that you don't have a hand and will call you down with bottom pair.

You're C/B on the flop should look exactly like the bet you make when you flop TPTK. Personally I always bet 3/4 of the pot, unless there's an obvious draw in a multiway pot, in which case I bet the full pot or even overbet. I play it exactly the same way regardless of whether or not I have a hand.

aces_dad

12-21-2005, 05:12 PM

Overall you described him as LAG but he seems willing to be loose passive as well, calling you down with any piece of the flop. You don't need to leave the table, you can win money off him, but you shouldn't be pushing unimproved overs and draws so much against him. I'd prefer to push the made hands more as he looks very willing to pay off. Basically look to value bet more than semi-bluff this type of player.

First three hands you're continuation bets are too small, more like half pot than full pot, and villian doesn't respect them / believe you at all. Potting it could have gotten him to fold the first one. Second one he's not going to fold and I'm not sure why you're so aggro on this hand. I don't like the preflop re-raise OOP with a marginal hand which needs to hit the flop to win against this player.

The button steal hand is a tough river call but if you're not willing to make this call you're better off just folding pf.

The final hand, I don't like the flop 3 bet, I don't think you've got good FE to make that move, and he's likely to pay you off if you improve on the turn anyway. Just call his c/r.

xorbie

12-21-2005, 05:13 PM

stop betting like a pussy when you have nothing.

wslee00

12-21-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
stop betting like a pussy when you have nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow - this little snippet sums it up nicely

tripp0807

12-21-2005, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't keep playing with air. It's got lousy showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So open raise AK, and then just check-fold the flop with a whiff? Somethinge like 66% of the time I still have the best hand, but I guess it's not putting my stack in on.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I said that they have lousy SHOWDOWN value, not lousy chances of winning the hand without a showdown. I guess xorbie summed up what I meant:

[ QUOTE ]
stop betting like a pussy when you have nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to fire bullets with air, make sure they have a chance of hitting the target. Pot size bets work better than this 1/3-1/2 pot crap.

12-21-2005, 05:29 PM

Hand 1) I love the PF and flop bet, especially with AK and a lousy flop but I'm checking after that also consider this a bad beat it was

Hand 2) Ditto

Hand 3) no pf raise, I'd fold to flop bet. looks like he got to you

Hand 4) ok

Hand 5) River all in, tell me you got your money back /images/graemlins/grin.gif

12-21-2005, 07:12 PM

Apparently you guys don't play with the same calling stations that I do. To me, telling him to make bigger CB's is just telling him to lose more money.

The pot in the first hand was $37 and villian called him down with 66. Is $2 more on the flop and $4 or $5 on the turn going to make villian fold?

Wait until you hit a flop. Make the same bets, let him call you down and lose. Some calling stations simply won't be bluffed until you win one from them.

cbloom

12-21-2005, 08:11 PM

Ok, I appreciate the replies, but I think the "bet more" line is much too simplistic. For one thing I was betting around 1/2 pot with hands and without, so betting 1/2 pot doesnt make it look like I have air. I have no reason to believe that betting pot on the flop would make him fold bottom pair. 60% of the time with hands like AK I'll flop no pair, so betting more for continuation just means I'm putting more money in the pot with no pair.

[ QUOTE ]

The button steal hand is a tough river call but if you're not willing to make this call you're better off just folding pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm.. well, I don't want to just become a vanilla player because of him. I want to be able to show down a top pair when it's good and fold when it's not. He's still going to make big hands and I don't want to pay off when he does. Maybe that means I just need to play tighter preflop so I can be more sure my hands are good?

[ QUOTE ]

The final hand, I don't like the flop 3 bet, I don't think you've got good FE to make that move, and he's likely to pay you off if you improve on the turn anyway. Just call his c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you assuming I'm behind on the flop? When he check-raises the flop I think I'm still ahead there often. He's shown he can check-raise with air, and will call with bottom pair, etc. He could also just have a draw with no made hand. Certainly when I 3-bet and he calls then I know I'm in trouble, but if I just fold to his check-raise that's inviting more check-raises. If I just call and don't improve I have to check-fold the turn?

aces_dad

12-21-2005, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I appreciate the replies, but I think the "bet more" line is much too simplistic. For one thing I was betting around 1/2 pot with hands and without, so betting 1/2 pot doesnt make it look like I have air. I have no reason to believe that betting pot on the flop would make him fold bottom pair. 60% of the time with hands like AK I'll flop no pair, so betting more for continuation just means I'm putting more money in the pot with no pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting a lot of these responses because the default cb size recommended on this forum is PSB, not 1/2 PSB. If 1/2PSB is your default cb you'll get advice to raise that as well. Basically you're laying too good odds for others to call and not getting enough value from your made hands.

If you're not hitting the flop, and your CB's aren't working against this guy, quit making them. Bluffy LAG's are the players I'm least likely to cb against.

[ QUOTE ]

The button steal hand is a tough river call but if you're not willing to make this call you're better off just folding pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Hmm.. well, I don't want to just become a vanilla player because of him. I want to be able to show down a top pair when it's good and fold when it's not. He's still going to make big hands and I don't want to pay off when he does. Maybe that means I just need to play tighter preflop so I can be more sure my hands are good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see two options for playing against him, and both should be profitable. Either tighten up and only play strong hands against him (the so called vanilla you don't want to do), or make these tough river calls with marginal hands TPNK. My point is that if you're not willing to enter the marginal decisions he is going to face you with when playing these type of hands, you should be careful to not enter them.

There's nothing wrong with so called vanilla against these players BTW, it's up to you how you want to play them.

[ QUOTE ]

The final hand, I don't like the flop 3 bet, I don't think you've got good FE to make that move, and he's likely to pay you off if you improve on the turn anyway. Just call his c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Are you assuming I'm behind on the flop? When he check-raises the flop I think I'm still ahead there often. He's shown he can check-raise with air, and will call with bottom pair, etc. He could also just have a draw with no made hand. Certainly when I 3-bet and he calls then I know I'm in trouble, but if I just fold to his check-raise that's inviting more check-raises. If I just call and don't improve I have to check-fold the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not folding to the flop c/r, there is a good chance we're ahead and if not have a good draw to get there. I just don't like the 3bet because there is no reason to semi-bluff this player; we should be looking to draw cheaply and get paid when we hit. Based upon what you've shown, he will pay us off. Also if we keep it cheap getting to showdown with these marginal holdings will be easier.

cbloom

12-21-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with so called vanilla against these players BTW, it's up to you how you want to play them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, I don't have a problem with just tightening up preflop. The thing I hate is with deep stacks just being willing to get allin with top pair, giving up on reading him for sets, flushes, etc.

[ QUOTE ]

I am not folding to the flop c/r, there is a good chance we're ahead and if not have a good draw to get there. I just don't like the 3bet because there is no reason to semi-bluff this player; we should be looking to draw cheaply and get paid when we hit. Based upon what you've shown, he will pay us off. Also if we keep it cheap getting to showdown with these marginal holdings will be easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so presumably check-call small on the turn, check-fold to big bets. I guess that's the best possible. He has shown that he'll attack pot-size with air after I show weakness, so that's entirely possible and I may fold the best hand + a good draw, but such is life.

BTW on the last hand he had QQ and I was drawing dead after the turn gave him a house, but he could've just had Q2 and the result would have been the same.

tomtemor

12-21-2005, 09:47 PM

Just some thoughts on hand #3. I see this line now and then and it's a bluff about 90% of the time in my experience. It just doesn't make since, I mean with what hand would someone play like this?

12-21-2005, 10:04 PM

He is outdrawing you and you will lose no matter what as long as that happens. He is paying way to much for his hands. With AK you will win 2/3 of the time so your best bet is to get as much money in up front as you can. With the flop that came off I would have bet 1/2 pot and 2/3 of the time it's a fold, he hit a six it happens. 8x the bb is a good amount based on having no knowledge of the table myself, sometimes you want to limp and hope for a steal and push, sometimes you can get 20x the pot. The problem I see is he is not folding to your semi bluffs. So don't semibluff. He bluffed you out of a pot, showed it. And then did some real damage with the fullhouse. You did have an openended straight draw at the the flop with middle pair, i think you overbet it vs calling.

I would try to act tilted, ie limp in often and try to catch him with a big hand. But try dropping the semi bluffs.

cbloom

12-21-2005, 10:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just some thoughts on hand #3. I see this line now and then and it's a bluff about 90% of the time in my experience. It just doesn't make since, I mean with what hand would someone play like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I folded is that he'd bet similarly on a previous hand with the flush. Generally in the past he would bet normal sizes with weak hands and continuation bluffs, then bet huge when he had big hands and get paid off well.