AA Hand - Correct amounts to Bet?

[Roadstar]

Reads - table relatively passive. Villain is about the 24/8/1 type. I haven't seen him show down many hands so I don't have a strong read.

I'm new to NL$25 so any comments greatly appreciated - usually play limit holdem at the 2/4 level.

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) (BB is actually $0.25)FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP2 ($0.55)
MP3 ($13.15)
CO ($27.40)
Button ($8.90)
SB ($7.75)
BB ($51.15)
Hero ($29.80)
UTG+1 ($71.10)
UTG+2 ($25.65)
MP1 ($12.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $0.85</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.85, UTG+2 calls $0.85, 7 folds</font>.

Just over 3 times the BB ok raise UTG?


Flop: ($2.95) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 players
Hero bets $2.5, UTG+1 raises to $5, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $17.5, UTG+1 calls $12.50.

Close to pot size lead out bet because I think I'm ahead. Not really sure what a min raise here by villain means - still think I'm ahead. I reraise for just over 3 times his $5 bet.

I'm a limit player and not really sure what my bet sizes should be here. I know min raises on the river usually means a monster but here on the flop I should probably reraise him here?

Turn: ($37.95) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $11.45 (All-In, UTG+1 calls $11.45.

I think I'm committed to this pot now so I go all in.

River: ($60.85) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $60.85

[beavens]

bigger raise pf - standard is 4xBB + 1xBB for every limper.

so make is $1 to go.

everything else seems standard.

[Maulik]

Raise to $1.5 UTG.

Pot the flop; straight &amp; flush draws up.

I would also go all-in or fold, against 3 players I'm likely to fold an overpair on that 2 broadway board.

[GrunchCan]

Hi, Roadstar. Welcome to SSNL. Limit and no-limit are wildly different.

Preflop was terrible. Actually, I'm surprised you were able to raise to 0.85 since that's less than a min-raise. 4x+1 in this case would be $2, not $1. $2 is a good amount to raise preflop here.

One of the differences between limit &amp; no-limit is how important it is to be conscious of your stack size. On this hand your flop raise left you with only ~$11 in a pot that would be ~$38 on the turn if your opponent called. You realized this, only too late, when you said, "I think I'm committed to this pot now so I go all in." You're right - you were potstuck. But you should have known this would happen before you made your flop raise. What difference would it have made? Well, if you're going to 3-bet the flop, you should just push then and there so you don't have to fool around with a dinky stack in a big pot. You can consider this to be a cardinal sin in no-limit; much like getting all-in is a cardinal sin in limit.

Another difference between no-limit and limit is the importance of pot control in no-limit. Your flop 3-bet made the pot grow almost uncontrollably. Not only would you be committed to all future action, but so would your opponents. Sometimes it's best to keep a lid on the pot, especially when you don't have the nuts. You very well could be way ahead. But you could also be drawing to two outs or be nearly even with your opponent. In this hand, I like to call the opponent's flop raise and play poker from there. I don't want an out of control brush fire; I want glowing embers I can throw gas on later if I want.

[beavens]

Grunchster - he said that the converter messed up.. this is 25NL - BB is .25

[GrunchCan]

Ah, ok. My bad.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, ok. My bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

no worries - rest of your post is spot on.

[Roadstar]

Thanks Grunch - that was extremely helpful. I must stop this limit hold'em based ram and jam mentality on the flop /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I can understand why you advocate a call. But if you can help me understand this: after villain's raise and if you think you're ahead, doesn't calling essentially mean at this point you're giving him a free card to draw out on you? i.e. he could have for example KQ.

Assuming we call the flop raise what is the plan on the turn (and then river)?

If it is a safe card (like a 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif), do we 3/4 pot it here again? If it is a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? a J?

Thanks!

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, Roadstar. Welcome to SSNL. Limit and no-limit are wildly different.

Preflop was terrible. Actually, I'm surprised you were able to raise to 0.85 since that's less than a min-raise. 4x+1 in this case would be $2, not $1. $2 is a good amount to raise preflop here.

One of the differences between limit &amp; no-limit is how important it is to be conscious of your stack size. On this hand your flop raise left you with only ~$11 in a pot that would be ~$38 on the turn if your opponent called. You realized this, only too late, when you said, "I think I'm committed to this pot now so I go all in." You're right - you were potstuck. But you should have known this would happen before you made your flop raise. What difference would it have made? Well, if you're going to 3-bet the flop, you should just push then and there so you don't have to fool around with a dinky stack in a big pot. You can consider this to be a cardinal sin in no-limit; much like getting all-in is a cardinal sin in limit.

Another difference between no-limit and limit is the importance of pot control in no-limit. Your flop 3-bet made the pot grow almost uncontrollably. Not only would you be committed to all future action, but so would your opponents. Sometimes it's best to keep a lid on the pot, especially when you don't have the nuts. You very well could be way ahead. But you could also be drawing to two outs or be nearly even with your opponent. In this hand, I like to call the opponent's flop raise and play poker from there. I don't want an out of control brush fire; I want glowing embers I can throw gas on later if I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand why you advocate a call. But if you can help me understand this: after villain's raise and if you think you're ahead, doesn't calling essentially mean at this point you're giving him a free card to draw out on you? i.e. he could have for example KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good questions.

I think the key here is, "after villain's raise and if you think you're ahead." If I have some reason to believe that I have the best hand here, I'll push every single time, for exactly the reson you said. If my opponent is going to continue in the hand, I want him to be making a mistake by doing so. If we were deeper, I'd engineer the largest possible raise that he would call and be incorrect in doing so. But in this case, I don't have the luxury of depth to make such manuvers. The only possible raise is a push here becasue of stack sizes.

However, my advocation of a call is based on the fact that I don't know that I have the best hand. I'm just reading a hand post. I don't have any reads or a feel for the table, all of which you had at the moment. If your instincts tell you you're ahead, follow your instincts. The correct play assuming you are ahead is to push.

It's all very complicated, isn't it?

[TheSalche]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want an out of control brush fire; I want glowing embers I can throw gas on later if I want.

[/ QUOTE ]

The imagery ... so beautiful

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Loc: UIUC

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, fellow Chicagoan. Play the Gary boats?

[Roadstar]

Ok that make sense. Now I don't really have that strong of a read. If I call how would you play the turn? The turn gives a straight possibility. Is it a check/call line or a bet/fold line? And how big of a bet to check call usually (rule of thumb?)

If blank, I guess all-in bet?

By the way, I think I remember seeing you post in the limit forums before, do you still play limit? What stakes?

Thanks

[ QUOTE ]
Good questions.

I think the key here is, "after villain's raise and if you think you're ahead." If I have some reason to believe that I have the best hand here, I'll push every single time, for exactly the reson you said. If my opponent is going to continue in the hand, I want him to be making a mistake by doing so. If we were deeper, I'd engineer the largest possible raise that he would call and be incorrect in doing so. But in this case, I don't have the luxury of depth to make such manuvers. The only possible raise is a push here becasue of stack sizes.

However, my advocation of a call is based on the fact that I don't know that I have the best hand. I'm just reading a hand post. I don't have any reads or a feel for the table, all of which you had at the moment. If your instincts tell you you're ahead, follow your instincts. The correct play assuming you are ahead is to push.

It's all very complicated, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

[GrunchCan]

One of the benefits of just calling the flop raise is that it gives you an escape hatch by controling pot growth.

If I just call the flop, I'll donk the turn for 2/3 PSB, no matter what comes. If a scare card falls and my opponent raises anyway, I pop the hatch and bail. Suprisingly often, the opponent will fold. If he calls with a flush draw, he's making a mistake. If he doesn't fold and he doesn't raiise, you're often put to a difficult decision as to how to play the river. Blocking bets come to the rescue to make this a bit easier.

Most of my ~4000 posts were in the micros forum. If you were hanging out in that forum even 6 months ago, you were probably assaulted by drivel from me. My poker career started in limit &amp; I switched not long ago to no-limit. I played about 250k hands at limits up to 5/10. I was pretty good, not the best ever. After I switched to no-limit, I realized that this is a better game for me. Or rather, I am better suited to no-limit than to limit.

[Roadstar]

Yeah you must have helped me out with a numerous posts in the micros. Hey is there a good link to a preflop guide for NL from 2+2ers? I searched the forusm but I generally get the "its postflop play that matters" threads.

Anyway here are the results: Villain shows KK. MHIG!

[ QUOTE ]
One of the benefits of just calling the flop raise is that it gives you an escape hatch by controling pot growth.

If I just call the flop, I'll donk the turn for 2/3 PSB, no matter what comes. If a scare card falls and my opponent raises anyway, I pop the hatch and bail. Suprisingly often, the opponent will fold. If he calls with a flush draw, he's making a mistake. If he doesn't fold and he doesn't raiise, you're often put to a difficult decision as to how to play the river. Blocking bets come to the rescue to make this a bit easier.

Most of my ~4000 posts were in the micros forum. If you were hanging out in that forum even 6 months ago, you were probably assaulted by drivel from me. My poker career started in limit &amp; I switched not long ago to no-limit. I played about 250k hands at limits up to 5/10. I was pretty good, not the best ever. After I switched to no-limit, I realized that this is a better game for me. Or rather, I am better suited to no-limit than to limit.

[/ QUOTE ]