I hate KTo - and this one is really ugly

[MadMat]

I seem to keep getting myself in trouble with the weaker offsuit broadways - heres a good example!

MP1 44/14/2.5 but only had about 30 hands on him at this point,

I put him on flush draw after the flop as I thought the 14 PFR meant he'd have raised any 2 big cards. Then I got confused as he didn't bet when I thought he'd hit!



Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (8.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[DCWildcat]

Bet the river at least. You'll get paid off by K's with lower kickers, will rarely be c/r'd, and might even squeak out some ugly calls with 99ish or A/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif type hands.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

This is a pretty bad preflop call.

I'd fold if MP1 had bet the turn.

Since you're here, bet the river.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a pretty bad preflop call.

I'd fold if MP1 had bet the turn.

Since you're here, bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't, he's up against three people, and one is a slightly OOP Poster so he could have ANYTHING, and is probably a weaker player due to posting OOP.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna stick by this one; the preflop call is not one I would make. With 5 limpers maybe, or with KJ+ I'm raising, but KTo hits the muck here every time for me.

bet the river, but I suspect it's a w/t afraid of the flush. Bet it tho.

preflop call is sooo not questionable

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna stick by this one; the preflop call is not one I would make. With 5 limpers maybe, or with KJ+ I'm raising, but KTo hits the muck here every time for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

these are two broadway cards. they have some value multiway in an unraised pot

[MadMat]

Limping with KTo on the button is straight out of SSH, but its one of the bits of SSH that I'm starting to question!

Just what are we looking to hit playing weak offsuit broadways in multiway pots? if we hit a K we have kicker problems, if we hit a T we are vulnerable to overcards on turn / river, and hitting the straight is a very longshot!

Interested to hear what other people do with the weaker offsuit broadways here!

Mat

[Wizard0965]

&lt;grunch&gt; You put him on a flush draw with him 3 betting the flop and not betting out on the turn. I think he puts you on the flush draw. My guess is he has KJs, or small set.

not to highjack this thread, but top pair from the button in an unraised pot is sweet. If tens are not so good, then why do we raise TT from any position pre-flop, and 3-bet often as well?

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
If tens are not so good, then why do we raise TT from any position pre-flop, and 3-bet often as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because TT flops a set 1 time in 8.5, or an overpair a good portion of the time.

[MadMat]

[ QUOTE ]
not to highjack this thread, but top pair from the button in an unraised pot is sweet. If tens are not so good, then why do we raise TT from any position pre-flop, and 3-bet often as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because our tens flop us a big set that we can go to war with a lot more often than our KTo is going to flop a hand powerfull enough to do the same thing?

Mat

raising is better than folding here....

what hands are you limping with here if not KT?

[MadMat]

I've been following the SSH tight chart and limping the weaker offsuit broadways from CO and Button, KT, QJ, QT JT.

Frequently finding myself lost postflop with them though!

Mat

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna stick by this one; the preflop call is not one I would make. With 5 limpers maybe, or with KJ+ I'm raising, but KTo hits the muck here every time for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

KT is an easy limp. I'm limping KJ as well.

Rob

i agree with entity 100%

and i wasnt referring to your play madmat, your preflop was fine... was talking to gravy.

KT with limpers AND position is a pretty easy call. You will have good decisions on the flop most of the time.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna stick by this one; the preflop call is not one I would make. With 5 limpers maybe, or with KJ+ I'm raising, but KTo hits the muck here every time for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

KT is an easy limp. I'm limping KJ as well.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You find yourself in some situations after the flop but you have position on everyone else, play poker.

[Pedigree]

I play it the same but I bet the river hoping to get called by a weaker King. I think he overplayed a weak King on the flop.

[MadMat]

for anyone interested, Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP1 has Ks Jh (one pair, kings).
MP2 has 4h Js (one pair, fours).
Hero has Th Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP1 wins 8.50 BB. </font>

[mojobluesman]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping with KTo on the button is straight out of SSH, but its one of the bits of SSH that I'm starting to question!

Just what are we looking to hit playing weak offsuit broadways in multiway pots? if we hit a K we have kicker problems, if we hit a T we are vulnerable to overcards on turn / river, and hitting the straight is a very longshot!

Interested to hear what other people do with the weaker offsuit broadways here!

Mat

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played the hand enough time to know whether I am a long term winner with it, but I share your sentiments and questions on hands like these.

I'd much rather play KTo "first in" or in an attempt to isolate a very loose limper with a raise. I don't know how this hand could work well with a lot of limpers unless you know you are a table with a huge stream of fish. Otherwise there could easily be better Ks out there etc...

[mojobluesman]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been following the SSH tight chart and limping the weaker offsuit broadways from CO and Button, KT, QJ, QT JT.

Frequently finding myself lost postflop with them though!

Mat

[/ QUOTE ]

They are all marginal at best even if you are not lost.

[mojobluesman]

I just checked my stats for KTo, QTo, JTo, and KJo from late position and I am a net loser. It's not an huge number of hands, but the Poker Room stats are very marginal also.

[kiemo]

WTF, fold preflop. This is 2+2 right?? I expected to see someone say 'raise preflop you have equity edge', before I thought I would see fold preflop on this hand.

I wouldve popped the turn on this hand. If he check raises you can ditch, but sure looks like he got scared by the flush card also so its probably a given he also has a K and you are in a kicker war. Betting the turn most likely buys you a free showdown and might win you hand right there.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
WTF

[/ QUOTE ]

Touche... I've been outvoted. You learn something new every day.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the turn most likely buys you a free showdown and might win you hand right there.

[/ QUOTE ]