Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

[ansky451]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

BB (t6000)
UTG (t63315)
UTG+1 (t12725)
MP1 (t9350)
MP2 (t5075)
MP3 (t14025)
Hero (t17270)
Button (t3855)
SB (t7950)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t450</font>, Hero calls t450, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t375, BB calls t300.

Flop: (t1800) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t7500</font>, BB folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls t5100.

I don't think I can/ want to fold to the 3 bet. I don't think there is anything wrong with the preflop call, but I'm open to flaming.

You may discuss now.

[REL18]

Questionable pre flop call but because u got yourself in that situation id call, the players will have to realize somebody has a flush so u might fold bottom set or even middle jj will call. I think you shouldnt have been in the situation in the first place

[ansky451]

Yeah, I'm not overly concerned with the flop call. Or the preflop call for that matter. Just thought both would merit some discussion.

[Roman]

Who is MP3? The flop call really depends on the opponent there. You cant fold this flop.

[ansky451]

Oh yeah sorry, this is the first level after the rebuy period in the 10 rebuy. Player is an unknown.

FWIW I'm not really asking if the flop call is good/bad cause I have no interest in folding there. We can discuss the flop raise/ raise size, and the preflop call as well.

[Annulus]

I don't mind your preflop call, especially if you feel you can outplay your opponents postflop. The hard part is when you actually flop a 8 high flush and get played back at. But in this hand, I have no problem 4-betting and putting him all in on this flop. If he did flop a flush you have 2 outs /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Roman]

yea zzzzzzzzz boring hand, looks fine.

Except for preflop, which I think is fine, I don't see another way to play.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think I can/ want to fold to the 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you fold there you need to quit poker.


[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is anything wrong with the preflop call, but I'm open to flaming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with 17K behind, calling 450 with position is fine, you know that.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Hotrod0823]

He is essentially all in anyway. I think you can call and get shown AJx with Ad enough to make it correct.

You played 86s and hit your hand hard, you have to bet it hard on this flop. I think I push this flop and make the guy holding Ad or Kd chase.

Not to mention you have those crazy 2 straight flush outs to fall back on.

I had a similar hand last night, Raised 43s on the button, flopped my baby flush and pushed over a BB pot bet. He instacalled with ATx, TPTK with A high flush draw. So it happens.

If this isn't a rebuy 1st level isn't this a horrific call preflop? Is it not smart to use the Gap Concept early in tournaments?

[ansky451]

FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

Preflop: Calling can be good here depending on how badly your opponents are playing and how the table is playing in general. Generally I would call here if the table is loose/passive preflop. If SB has been playing reasonably (I assume he is as you posted no read) his range here is probably low-mid pairs, Big aces, and suited connectors.

Flop: Pretty obvious raise when the action first gets to you (hand is strong relative to opponents ranges, but is still very vulnerable). You picked a good amount, prices opponents out but still isnt too much to be called
Now the SB checkraises. This can mean couple things: 1)Big pair/two pair/set- SB feels his hand is strong, but vulnerable if you are bluffing with the Ad. I think you will see a hand like this often in this situation.The opponent feared getting no action from worse hands if he bet out, so he decided to checkraise initially to get value and protect his hand.
2) Flush (non Ace high) - A flush would checkraise for the same reasons two pair/set/big pair would (protect hand/still get value). A flush seems somewhat likely here as there are various suited connectors that may have called preflop and flopped the flush. Also, even though its not that likely, the villain may have a flush lower than yours (34s).

Conclusion:Based on the villains most likely holdings, you must call in this situation. You are getting over 3-1 when you are beating a good percentage of his hand range. Also, you very likely have two outs when you are behind.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The first rule of MTTF is there are no rules?"

"This isn't NL, this is bowling, there are rules."


FWIW, this hand is pretty boring. You have like a million chips or something.

[ansky451]

Meh. My bad.

Your avatar broke.

I like and hate this play at the same time, I'm so confused. I have made this play before, usually with connectors though, such as my now not so famous 4xbb raise from MP with 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, wouldnt you know it, I hit quad 2s on the turn. Poor guy never saw it coming. Obviously in your hand, only that concerns me is OP has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, but you got to bet it, odds are you are the only one to flop the flush.

[Jdanz]

do you call and push or just push?

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
If this isn't a rebuy 1st level isn't this a horrific call preflop? Is it not smart to use the Gap Concept early in tournaments?

[/ QUOTE ]

The key here is stack-size. If Hero (or villain for that matter) had 10-15BB, yes the call would be horrible becuase the odds of Hero catching a nice flop are slim, and with a small stack your ability to out maneuver your opponent is very limited. With 6540654680650 BBs, Hero can call here without affecting his stack, and see what the flop brings. If it's AKQ of clubs, and there is action, he folds and goes on his merry way, having lost very little.

The final (though related) piece is implied odds. With stacks this deep, Hero can take down a huge pot if he hits, so having a look at the flop with this kind of hand is doable.

[Brad F.]

Ansky,

Your problem here is that you didn't hit your two-outer. It's all good.

You need specific reads to lay this down, and early in a tourney you don't have that. Yes, sometimes being a LAG can get us in trouble, but more often than not you'll see an overpair with a diamond or a naked ace here.

Brad

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure there are. Specifically, the magic words 'implied odds' are shorthand for 'stacking somebody when the crap I call with flops something really cool'. So the rule you are missing is that you should only call this hand when 1)you know how to play it well, 2)you think they are worse than you (not counting the 10/20 NL metagame or whatever), 3)you can sometimes stack them with it or at least take it away on an A72 board.

So, for example, let's say I make this raise and you call 85s, then a couple of people overcall behind. The following things will happen: 1)I will rarely pay you off without a magic A85 board*, 2)you will sometimes pay me off (when we both hit but I hit better due to my starting hands), 3)you will fold to my bets a lot or I will check fold my missed AK and you will fold anyway because you also missed and it's a 4 way pot.

*Lots of times, because this is 85s, what will happen instead is that I will hit top pair etc. and you will hit a draw. This is when you say the magic words 'implied odds' again and call or raise my bet, and I or someone behind me says 'but I have the best hand' and we wind up playing a big pot with you as a dog/you call two streets, bet when your draw hits and win surprisingly little/you had more than everybody else after all and win a small pot.

I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW). I've never played with you that I remember so you might very well be an exception, but I would like to throw that out there.

**note that if 3 people coldcalled that raise ahead of you, this would be an entirely different story due solely to the fact that you now have position on lots of idiots in a much bigger pot that people won't fold in.

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW).


[/ QUOTE ]

I second this. I went through a period where I basically saw the flop with any suited connector through two gapper and a lot of unsuited connectors, especially in raised pots. Also any pair, and a lot of mediocre broadway hands. I was experimenting. My goal was to do as much "outplaying after the flop/getting paid off when I hit a big flop" as I could in order to figure out how much implied odds you really have in these situations. Sometimes I got aggressive whenever I hit a pair, to see how often I could get someone to fold, sometimes I didn't even need a pair. Other times, I folded whenever I missed. In general, I tried to make use of my reads to do a mixture of the two and 'maximize the value of position.' Most of the time, I lost chips doing this, because most of the time the situation isn't right and you either bleed away chips one coldcall at a time or stick your neck out postflop at the wrong time.

My conclusion is that, yes there are ways to extract value from these hands exploiting specific weaknesses that you observe in an opponent , such as tendencies to raise too much and give up when he misses, or tendencies to overplay top pair. But against a typical raiser with typical postflop skills, you are giving up too much by taking 85s against his raising range.

Edit: In other words, deep stack be damned, don't coldcall raises with 85s or even 87s without a read on the raiser and most of the table behind you.

[Ian J]

Um reraise preflop obv. Since you didn't, fold the flop the first time around. When the PFR leads for 1/4 pot into 4 people, he obv. flopped the nuts. You're certainly blessed that he didn't this time ansky.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW). I've never played with you that I remember so you might very well be an exception, but I would like to throw that out there.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is indeed possible. I'm not going to wave my poker e-penis around and say how I can always outplay my opponent post flop here. This is however, my pretty much "standard" play, as with deep stacks and position I love to put myself in spots like these. If I have a good read on my opponent, and I'm not playing like [censored], I do beleive this is a +EV preflop call.

This seems like more of a style question than anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't trust anything Dan Harrington says?

[MLG]

no. but your understanding of the gap concept is quite flawed. there are reasons not to play this hand here and adanthar highlighted them fairly well. the gap concept is not one of them.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

BB (t6000)
UTG (t63315)
UTG+1 (t12725)
MP1 (t9350)
MP2 (t5075)
MP3 (t14025)
Hero (t17270)
Button (t3855)
SB (t7950)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t450</font>, Hero calls t450, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls t375, BB calls t300.

Flop: (t1800) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t7500</font>, BB folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls t5100.

I don't think I can/ want to fold to the 3 bet. I don't think there is anything wrong with the preflop call, but I'm open to flaming.

You may discuss now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get why you'd want to call PF?

I'd be trying to get myself as close to all in as possible on that flop. You even have a str8 flush draw. What's the problem here?

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah sorry, this is the first level after the rebuy period in the 10 rebuy. Player is an unknown.

FWIW I'm not really asking if the flop call is good/bad cause I have no interest in folding there. We can discuss the flop raise/ raise size, and the preflop call as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me believe even more that you are probbaly way ahead and will get him to call a flop push.

[ansky451]

Dave, I never wanted to discuss the flop decision in particular. Just the hand in general. I called with no real hesitation.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't trust anything Dan Harrington says?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play poker with an instruction manual.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play poker with an instruction manual.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're so bad ass. can I be you.