How are people this retarted?

Yes its a 5+1, but still..

Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 5: Alex1212111 ( $3585 )
Seat 4: scottycarp ( $140 ) <<<<<<<<<<<
Seat 6: bedshockey27 ( $2340 )
Seat 8: schauss ( $1935 )
Trny:18460822 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Alex1212111 [ 3c 4d ]
scottycarp folds.
Alex1212111 is all-In [3585]
bedshockey27 is all-In [2190]
schauss folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 9h, Kh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
bedshockey27 shows [ Qh, Ac ] a pair of tens.
Alex1212111 shows [ 3c, 4d ] two pairs, tens and fours.
Alex1212111 wins 1245 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and fours.
Alex1212111 wins 4980 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and fours.
bedshockey27 finished in fourth place.
omg
bedshockey27 has left the table.
The Small Blind left the table. The Dealer button remains in place.

He deserved to lose that.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..

Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 5: Alex1212111 ( $3585 )
Seat 4: scottycarp ( $140 ) <<<<<<<<<<<
Seat 6: bedshockey27 ( $2340 )
Seat 8: schauss ( $1935 )
Trny:18460822 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Alex1212111 [ 3c 4d ]
scottycarp folds.
Alex1212111 is all-In [3585]
bedshockey27 is all-In [2190]
schauss folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 9h, Kh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ts ]
bedshockey27 shows [ Qh, Ac ] a pair of tens.
Alex1212111 shows [ 3c, 4d ] two pairs, tens and fours.
Alex1212111 wins 1245 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and fours.
Alex1212111 wins 4980 chips from the main pot with two pairs, tens and fours.
bedshockey27 finished in fourth place.
omg
bedshockey27 has left the table.
The Small Blind left the table. The Dealer button remains in place.

He deserved to lose that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You tried bullying people in a 5+1? [ QUOTE ]
How are people this retarted?

[/ QUOTE ] I dunno...

Isnt this a clear push with any two, since (theoretically, the 2 medium stacks can't call anything but like AA and KK?

edit: due to shorty being so short.

[dogsballs]

[ QUOTE ]


You tried bullying people in a 5+1? [ QUOTE ]
How are people this retarted?

[/ QUOTE ] I dunno...

[/ QUOTE ]


lol. nice.

I had almost the exact same thing happen in a 55 just a moment ago. I wasnt too surprised.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Isnt this a clear push with any two, since (theoretically, the 2 medium stacks can't call anything but like AA and KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes its a 5+1, but still..


[/ QUOTE ]

They are not folding good hands. Never ever ever never.

[dogsballs]

yep, its straightforward play. But sometimes peeps cant let go of a decent hand; they're not too interested in thinking past "heck, this is a good hand!"

Ha, yeah i guess youre right, is this still the right play?

edit: nevermind thanks dogs

[bones]

No, it's not the right play. The EV derived from this play is from your opponents folding all but the best hands. They aren't going to fold their good hands, so it becomes a losing play.

I see this call with Q3o all the time. "I knew you were bluffing."

At the lowest stakes, people tend to ignore the payout structure.

Hmm... I dunno, before this I was running over the bubble, stealing blinds left and right. I got called by AJ when i had A8 once, but other than that everything was going fine.

I was open pushing A7+, K9+, 22+, QJ, JTs etc.

[ilya]

Your $5 opponents *do* adjust, just not as much as they should. Many will fold a hand like A8s or 55 here even though they would call in another situation, thanks to a partial understanding of the payout structure implications. Remember when you first understood that some situations on the bubble make it correct for you to fold AK to a push? didn't it feel weird & counterintuitive?

You shouldn't assume that your opponents are playing perfectly, but I also think you shouldn't assume that they are clueless psychos. If you assume that, you might end up folding too many hands in a spot like this. Instead, I think it's best to make an educated guess about the extent to which your opponents understand the situation, derive likely calling ranges from that guess, and push accordingly. In this spot, you might guess that your opponents will call with something like 77+, AJs+, AQo+. That still lets you push a fair number of hands.

[protoverus]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I dunno, before this I was running over the bubble, stealing blinds left and right. I got called by AJ when i had A8 once, but other than that everything was going fine.

I was open pushing A7+, K9+, 22+, QJ, JTs etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


There's your answer.
The more you push, the more people will open up their calling ranges (even ridiculously so). Especially at the lower levels, you are going to called just cause you are pissing them off. I'm surprised it took that long!

[LesJ]

Interesting thought process here. If you had been running over the table on the bubble as you indicate, I would most likely call the push here as well. If he wins this hand (that he is a 65-35 favorite in), he becomes the dominant chip leader and has a solid chance of taking down first place. If he folds this, then what else must he fold while the small stack is still around? What happens if the small stack makes it through the next orbit? Is this guy suppossed to just passively fold all his hands to your greatness? Not only do I not see this play as "retarded," given the information you provided, I consider it the CORRECT play. Why wait around and HOPE to spinelessly win $4? The push, IMHO, is what is suspect. The only callers you will get are the ones who have u dominated. You should have been down to about 1200 chips here.
Les

[bluef0x]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thought process here. If you had been running over the table on the bubble as you indicate, I would most likely call the push here as well. If he wins this hand (that he is a 65-35 favorite in), he becomes the dominant chip leader and has a solid chance of taking down first place. If he folds this, then what else must he fold while the small stack is still around? What happens if the small stack makes it through the next orbit? Is this guy suppossed to just passively fold all his hands to your greatness? Not only do I not see this play as "retarded," given the information you provided, I consider it the CORRECT play. Why wait around and HOPE to spinelessly win $4? The push, IMHO, is what is suspect. The only callers you will get are the ones who have u dominated. You should have been down to about 1200 chips here.
Les

[/ QUOTE ]

You're risking a buy-in when you are guranteed to at least turn a profit on this SnG? Why are you thinking of it as $4? Of course that means nothing to you, but to someone who plays $6 SnG's it's a lot. BTW, it's not just $4- it's a difference of $10. Horrible reasoning

[Melchiades]

Calling with AQ here is -3.6% if he pushes any two.

If he pushes any two, you should call with TT+.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thought process here. If you had been running over the table on the bubble as you indicate, I would most likely call the push here as well. If he wins this hand (that he is a 65-35 favorite in), he becomes the dominant chip leader and has a solid chance of taking down first place. If he folds this, then what else must he fold while the small stack is still around? What happens if the small stack makes it through the next orbit? Is this guy suppossed to just passively fold all his hands to your greatness? Not only do I not see this play as "retarded," given the information you provided, I consider it the CORRECT play. Why wait around and HOPE to spinelessly win $4? The push, IMHO, is what is suspect. The only callers you will get are the ones who have u dominated. You should have been down to about 1200 chips here.
Les

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this line of thinking has more merit than people generally give it credit for, but in this situation you'd be giving up too big a chunk of immediate $EV by calling with AQo for not enough future +$EV.

It's true that you will be the big stack on the bubble if you win, but you are likely to not even get an opportunity to take advantage of that. The shortie will have to survive the next hand, for one. If he does, your pushes will have to go through him. He will know that your range is likely to be extremely loose, and also that he can't hope to wait out the other stacks. So he will call you liberally. When he loses, your bubble big stack advantage will be over. When he wins, the other players will have similar stacks. None of them will feel like they can wait out the others, loosening them up & forcing you to tighten up.

And even these limited advantages will only be available to you 65% of the time at best.

If you fold, shortie will still have to survive the next hand. If he busts, you will be ITM with a solid stack & a good chance of finishing 2nd or 1st. If he wins the next hand, he will often bust on the one after that. Half his stack will be in the pot after posting the SB, and he won't have much hope of outfolding the others. Even if he plays that hand and wins it, he will still be the short stack. Not insignificantly, the big stack will most likely not be able to fold to him on that second hand.

In short, a TON of things have to go wrong in succession for you to not make the money if you fold here. And when you do make the money, you will often still have enough to make a run.

[LesJ]

I am not trying to really give away a whole lot about how I play personally, but overall I am a fairly tight player when it comes to calling off all my chips. Over the last couple of weeks, my ITM is GREAT, but my ROI is alot lower than I would like, in large part because I am most likely a little TOO cautious at times, but I call this. The OP has already told us their image at the table is loose. Are you playing for 1st or to just survive? What range would u call with here. . AA only?
Les

[tewall]

No. Figure out what their likely calling range is. If they understood the theory, they'd only call you with a couple of hands. But they don't, so you can't act on the basis of what would be a good play if they understood but on the basis of reality. What will they actually call with? Then figure out what's a good push based on that.

By why push at all? The reason for pushing rather than making a smaller raise is that better players will just come over the top of you, plus you'll lose fold equity. But these aren't better players. If you can rob the blinds with small raises, why risk so much? Save your big raises for when you have a real hand. Let them call your big raises when you're the favorite, and fold to small raises when you're not.

[curtains]

lol yea I bet after calling with the AQo, your opponent went and looked it up in SNGPT and learned the errors of his ways. So push against him in the future, I bet he will never make this mistake again.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
What range would u call with here. . AA only?
Les

[/ QUOTE ]
Like i posted. If we assume opponent is pushing any two cards, you should call with TT+.

Folding here does not mean you only play to sneak into the money. You still have a good chance of winning this thing after folding.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[bones]

There's a reason poker will always be profitable, no matter how much information is made available. You cannot teach discipline (in this sense) and you cannot teach application. OP and the caller both made huge mistakes and both think the other is a retard (pretty safe assumption for caller, I'd think). In all likelihood, both will make the same mistake many times over. Long live poker, master of denial and self-deceit.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. We need a bot to say this for us, and we need to convince the MTT forum of this.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. We need a bot to say this for us, and we need to convince the MTT forum of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think in multis you should play for first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

p.s. but it's really just cos of the hidden extra $EV of winning a big chunk of $$ all at once, or in the case of a TV tournament, of reaping the financial benefits of fame.

[Melchiades]

Yeah. I've been banging my head against the wall in the MTT forum sometimes over this quite a few times.

[curtains]

btw I suspect that even in a $5 it is gonig to be +EV to push there on the button. I could be wrong, but even they can see that they awnt to finish top 3. However AQ is just way too pretty to expect them to fold. But just because they call with AQ+AJ, doesnt mean the play isnt +EV.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
In all likelihood, both will make the same mistake many times over. Long live poker, master of denial and self-deceit.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if anyone gets REALLY bored tonight, you can read this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4192587&an=0&page=1#Post 4192587) hitting on this point.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. We need a bot to say this for us, and we need to convince the MTT forum of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think in multis you should play for first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

p.s. but it's really just cos of the hidden extra $EV of winning a big chunk of $$ all at once, or in the case of a TV tournament, of reaping the financial benefits of fame.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like I just went through a bad relationship.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]

btw I suspect that even in a $5 it is gonig to be +EV to push there on the button. I could be wrong, but even they can see that they awnt to finish top 3. However AQ is just way too pretty to expect them to fold. But just because they call with AQ+AJ, doesnt mean the play isnt +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
If both SB and BB call with 88+,ATs+,AJo+, it's still +0.7% to push with 34o.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. We need a bot to say this for us, and we need to convince the MTT forum of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think in multis you should play for first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

p.s. but it's really just cos of the hidden extra $EV of winning a big chunk of $$ all at once, or in the case of a TV tournament, of reaping the financial benefits of fame.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like I just went through a bad relationship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, at least it's over.

[ QUOTE ]

Hey, at least it's over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they ever really end?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hey, at least it's over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do they ever really end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, mine do. Usually with an injunction.

[betgo]

In MTTs, people play to survive when they should play ot win.

[Melchiades]

People should play to maximise +EV in MTT as well. That simple.

[DPCondit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In all likelihood, both will make the same mistake many times over. Long live poker, master of denial and self-deceit.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if anyone gets REALLY bored tonight, you can read this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4192587&an=0&page=1#Post 4192587) hitting on this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if the lemon juice would disguise bluffs also.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
People should play to maximise +EV in MTT as well. That simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, but people pay too much attention to cashing or moving up in the money when they should be playing for the top places. Your EV is generally maximized when youplay for the top places.

Sometimes in MTTs, particualrly at the final table, it is correct to play tight to move up in places.

I love to see fish make idiotic plays and suck out. That just reinforces their thought process, and they keep making those mistakes.

The caller made a horrible mistake also, unless he was really familiar with that player. I made a similar play once with AK after seeing someone go all in on 5 consecutive hands when the blinds were 25/50. He turned over 59o and lost to my A high.

[fluorescenthippo]

come on. we see these posts every other day. i bet 90% of the people reading this thread thought this was a call when the first started playing sngs. i know i did.

this hand is boring

[Scott_Baio]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thought process here. If you had been running over the table on the bubble as you indicate, I would most likely call the push here as well. If he wins this hand (that he is a 65-35 favorite in), he becomes the dominant chip leader and has a solid chance of taking down first place. If he folds this, then what else must he fold while the small stack is still around? What happens if the small stack makes it through the next orbit? Is this guy suppossed to just passively fold all his hands to your greatness? Not only do I not see this play as "retarded," given the information you provided, I consider it the CORRECT play. Why wait around and HOPE to spinelessly win $4? The push, IMHO, is what is suspect. The only callers you will get are the ones who have u dominated. You should have been down to about 1200 chips here.
Les

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mr_J]

I kinda laugh every time I read the subject of this topic.

[Snarf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

THank you.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you playing for 1st or to just survive?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a rhetorical question as you may suppose, but rather an extremely misguided one. You should never "play for first." You should play to maximize your $$ expectation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the logic but disagree with the conclusion. Here's my reasoning:

Given Pushy McPush's pushing strategy, my AQo is likely to be quite dominant. Against a random hand, AQo wins about 2:1, and you probably looked like you were playing completely random hands. That means that two-thirds of the time I'm going to have the huge, dominant chip stack.

If I fold, the stacks will be:

4035
140
2190 <-- me
1635

ICM gives me about $15.51 for this.

If I gamble, I lose 1/3 of the time, but 2/3 of the time the stacks are:

1245
140
4980 <-- me
1635

And ICM gives me $20.71 for this. Expected payout is therefore (2/3) * 20.71 = $13.81, and the call costs me an apparent $1.70 or so.

However, this ignores the fact that if I do win, I'll shut down the thief who has been MERCILESSLY stealing my blinds. If the thief is smart (and he appears to be), then he WON'T steal the tiny stack, giving him another round or two to steal with impunity. How long can I bleed t450 every four hands and still stay in this tournament? Basically, if I win this one hand, I'm the favorite to win the whole tournament. If I lose it, I'm out of the money. If I don't play it, I'm in a horse-race for second.

Frankly, I think metagame considerations may make this a reasonable call unless you're confident the short stack won't survive this orbit. Do I think a 5+1 player was thinking about metagame issues? No. I think he was just pissed that you kept jerking off into his breakfast cereal and decided to do something about it.

[Newt_Buggs]

This thread is retarded

You're surprised that a $6 player didn't lay down AQ preflop? I've seen many calls that were worse than this in the $215s.

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is retarded

You're surprised that a $6 player didn't lay down AQ preflop? I've seen many calls that were worse than this in the $215s.

[/ QUOTE ]

ship it /images/graemlins/cool.gif