Flop play with KJs

[AlmightyJay]

UTG+1 is a LAG. His bet on the flop means he has a Q, an A, possibly a 2, or a draw. I have a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. I hate spots like this and don't really know what to do when this happens. What's your play here?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="blue">Hero...</font>

[bozlax]

You've got around 5 outs and you're getting 9:1 from the pot. If UTG+1 doesn't have an ace, it's likely somebody else does. I'm more interested in your reads on SB and BB, actually...is one of them going for a c/r with an ace?

Default play, call and call one back to you if c/r'd, then reevaluate on the turn. If it's raised and 3-bet back to you, let it go.

Call. Fold turn UI.

[AlmightyJay]

I don't have many hands on SB, but he's a total fish. I haven't seen him check/raise. I'd expect him to bet with an A. He'll call down with anything.

BB is tight but not very good. I've seen him check/raise once in 100 hands. He may be capable of it.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have many hands on SB, but he's a total fish. I haven't seen him check/raise. I'd expect him to bet with an A. He'll call down with anything.

BB is tight but not very good. I've seen him check/raise once in 100 hands. He may be capable of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Pot's right. Call.

I'm calling here with backdoor flush and straight draw.

Calling one more if its back to me
- if it was worth 1 to call then it will still be worth 1more to call

Folding to 3bet
- Getting to call 2 cold is no longer a good draw because you are probably way behind and don't have as many outs as you originally thought

(Newbie grunch)
This is a big pot (raised and 4-handed pre-flop), so I would probably raise for two reasons. 1) I want to fold out the sb and bb, and 2) I would like a bit more info from Mr. LAG. If he has a Q, a 2, or a draw, I would like to be able to spike my K or J to win, and folding the blinds would help this, IMO. If he has an A, we have 4.5 outs to beat him, and our bdf is to the nuts. I would assume that this could also count as a semi-bluff, although LAGGy prob won't fold. If he 3-bets, I would prob call and fold the turn UI.

1.5 outs for the flush draw, 4 outs for the straight draw, gives you about 5 outs to be conservative. Your getting 9 to 1 on the flop so your call will be profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
(Newbie grunch)
This is a big pot (raised and 4-handed pre-flop), so I would probably raise for two reasons. 1) I want to fold out the sb and bb, and 2) I would like a bit more info from Mr. LAG. If he has a Q, a 2, or a draw, I would like to be able to spike my K or J to win, and folding the blinds would help this, IMO. If he has an A, we have 4.5 outs to beat him, and our bdf is to the nuts. I would assume that this could also count as a semi-bluff, although LAGGy prob won't fold. If he 3-bets, I would prob call and fold the turn UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might force them out and win a small pot heads up against the lag if your K or J comes (jacks probably risky). However, the real money of this hand is going to occur if you hit the straight or back door flush. In that case you want as many people in the pot as possible for the reverse implied odds.

Either way if you hit your K or J anyone who is still in the hand is probably drawing to a straight also. You are not going to be able to finish the hand strong if your pair hits so you might as well hope for the big draw to come in with many people contributing.

I'm saving my money to see where this one goes. Your hand is not strong and I'd really like to see another card cheaply. For me, I'm almost looking for an excuse to get out of this hand. Its just long term trouble in my eyes.

*************
Keep in mind Laggy's are laggy for a reason. They like to bet and they like to raise. You don't wont to be three bet on this flop.

[ajm36]

call the flop and fold turn UI

Grunch.

First off, how would you play the hand if 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif came on the turn? Would you be scared of the flush? If you are, you should fold right here.

Anyway, to get our straight on the river we have a 15,63% chance along with the 4,07% of hitting a runner runner flush. Current pot is 8 and will be 10sb if you call. Let's say SB folds here. Another bet to call on the turn if you don't hit your straight but hit another club comes. Let's see:

In case a club comes you call 1,5BB and fold the river unimproved to win a 7bb pot by the turn. Since you will only make your flush/straight by the river 1 in 4 times (that is if a second club comes on the turn) and you will get the odds of 4,66-1 I like calling here. And to call the flop, the odds just don't quite match up to it but with implied odds and all, I call too.

Call the flop, fold turn UI.

[ QUOTE ]
call the flop and fold turn UI

[/ QUOTE ]

[imported_The Vibesman]

Call the flop and call one back if raised, fold the turn UI. Backdoor nut flush draw and gutshot draw (discounting the Th), along with the possibility that your K is a good out.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, how would you play the hand if 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif came on the turn? Would you be scared of the flush? If you are, you should fold right here.


[/ QUOTE ]

that's not the way to look at it, sure someone may hit a flush, but just b/c there are 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif's doesn't mean it has to be a flush. We can discount our T /images/graemlins/heart.gif out, and we still have around 4-5 outs. We are getting 9-1 on the call, plus may get another call or two. Not to mention the nice pay off we get from the lag if we hit our gutshot. I say it's a call.

9:1 dont justify a call on the flop here. We need like 10-1 to make the call. And if we discounts the T of hearts we need to have even higher than 10-1 to call. Im not sure how aggressive villain is but with implied odds it may work out. That's why I think it's a fold if hero is scared of the T of hearts here. Calling wont be good then since the odds dont justify that.

[ajm36]

[ QUOTE ]
9:1 dont justify a call on the flop here. We need like 10-1 to make the call. And if we discounts the T of hearts we need to have even higher than 10-1 to call. Im not sure how aggressive villain is but with implied odds it may work out. That's why I think it's a fold if hero is scared of the T of hearts here. Calling wont be good then since the odds dont justify that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still have the backdoor nut flush draw, this gives you another 1.5 outs. Even if you discount the 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif fully (which you should absolutely NOT be doing), I think the implied odds still make this a clear call. I would discount the 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gifapproximately 0.25 outs.