Nut flush draw on a paired board

(This was on ParadisePoker, don't know how to upload hand history)

I have A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button. MP-1 calls, MP-2 calls, I call , SB calls, BB checks. 5-way to flop.

Flop comes Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, checked to me, I check for a free card.

Turn shows Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, SB bets, BB folds, MP-1 calls, MP-2 folds, I call.

I feel like checking the flop was the correct play. If you disagree, let me know.

Is the turn bet worth calling? It's a $9 pot, and if I hit my /images/graemlins/diamond.gif flush, I figure it won't build too much more on the river. If someone else has two lower /images/graemlins/diamond.gif's, I might bank if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif does hit, but that would reduce my outs from 9 to 7. If one of these guys is slowplaying a Q, he might hit his boat on the river or already have it. I figure it unlikely enough that this isn't the case so I call.

[milesdyson]

bet the flop. you may pick it up here, and you may force someone with a queen to attempt a "sweet" check raise on the turn, only you'll get a free card out of it.

that said, there's no doubt you should be calling the turn, if not raising.

[Vote4Pedro]

Bet the flop for sure. Take a free turn(if you choose) when the bets are big.

[Songwind]

You have enough callers in the hand to pump this flush draw for value. I bet the flop.

What limit were you playing? I'm having trouble getting $9 at the point where you call.

Bet the flop. You could easily pick up the pot if nobody has a Q. Betting the flop would've driven out the two that folded on the Turn bet anyway. You still would have had the same money in the pot.

Calling the Turn is fine.

[Vote4Pedro]

uno/dos

It was 1/2, $5 was in the pot pre-flop, on the turn there were 2 $2 bets with me to act, so $9 pot (8.75 with rake)

Is it standard proceedure to now post the river action and result of the hand, or can I just leave it up for discussion with the current information?

[jrz1972]

Bet the flop. First of all, your bet is for value. That's the main thing. As a side benefit, it will often get you a free card on the more expensive street, which you should take since the board is paired and many people love to wait for the turn to get aggressive with trips.

[beaster]

nestle grunch

This hand is multiway so bet that flop. If someone check-raises you, so be it. A likely candidate would be a lone Q and you still have 9 outs to improve. So you'd call the check-raise and look at the turn. Like the turn call.

How does one factor in the chance that "if I hit my draw, I could still lose to a full house" in a hand like this? Sure it's unlikely, but there's a good chance that such a scenario would result in deep losses on the river.

[Greg J]

Typically you should weigh outs accordingly. Instead of counting an out that pairs the board as a full outs, you should typically count it as .5 or .75 outs, depending on the action. EDIT: I got this hand mixed up with another one -- in this hand I would lean more towards .75 outs.

[jrz1972]

When the board is paired, you want a little more overlay than usual. But you've got that here.

On the flop, you only need two callers (normally) for bets/raises to be for value. With four opponents and the possibility of a free card on the next street, that's plenty of extra sweetener to compensate for the paired board.

On the turn, you're getting 4.5:1 on a call (I think). At first glance, that seems a little thin considering the paired board, but you have to factor in that we're getting some extra river bets if we hit, and we might even win by spiking an ace. We also clean up if we catch a 5. Easy call.

If you make your flush on the river, you just need to be a little more careful than normal. I would raise a river bet but only call if I get 3-bet.

Basically, if you don't occasionally get taken to the cleaners in a flush-vs-boat situation, you're probably not playing right.

[ QUOTE ]
Typically you should weigh outs accordingly. Instead of counting an out that pairs the board as a full outs, you should typically count it as .5 or .75 outs, depending on the action. EDIT: I got this hand mixed up with another one -- in this hand I would lean more towards .75 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

sooo... on the side of caution (.50 outs) my diamond out go from 9 to 4.5. Therefore I am NOT getting correct pot odds to call (9 to 1 for winning) vs (3.5 to 1 on my $). Even assuming the better will pay me off another $2 if I hit, my implied odds are a sorry (4.5 to 1).

Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
When the board is paired, you want a little more overlay than usual. But you've got that here.

On the flop, you only need two callers (normally) for bets/raises to be for value. With four opponents and the possibility of a free card on the next street, that's plenty of extra sweetener to compensate for the paired board.

On the turn, you're getting 4.5:1 on a call (I think). At first glance, that seems a little thin considering the paired board, but you have to factor in that we're getting some extra river bets if we hit, and we might even win by spiking an ace. We also clean up if we catch a 5. Easy call.

If you make your flush on the river, you just need to be a little more careful than normal. I would raise a river bet but only call if I get 3-bet.

Basically, if you don't occasionally get taken to the cleaners in a flush-vs-boat situation, you're probably not playing right.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is all very sound advice.

[ QUOTE ]
We also clean up if we catch a 5. Easy call.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have the hand history in front of me at the time of making the post, and turns out I didn't actually pair my 5 on the board. The REAL board showed:

Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

Sorry for the confusion. Still think it was an easy call?

[jrz1972]

Yeah I still call. You can't fear a boat every time the board is paired. Most of the time trips aren't even out, let alone a boat. I actually do think we'll usually take this down (or chop) if an A hits.