KK vs 2 Q's on the board

Don't have much of a read on MP2, only a few hands in and multi-tabling.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

So do I c/c down here or just give up (or bet/raise!?)? The c/c would cost me 2 to win 10.75. I do have a 11.5-1 draw for the K. How often do I think he doesn't have the Q with the cold call and the flop raise?

Without reads it's difficult to know but I don't think you can give villian a Q here 100% of the time. At .5/1 people can do strange things. It's conceivable that he is betting his flush draw or wants to see if you have a Q or is his JJ still good. I might lead out again on the turn and see what villian does. If he calls I'd do it again on the river if a non-D shows up. If I'm running bad I may just c/c down and cry a little when he turns up Q4o.

Hey, I'm stupid... I put in the complete wrong odds on the K.. it's 23-1...

[friends]

There are two main options:
1) MP2 has flush draw or middle pair.
2) MP2 has Q, or middle pair.

If his has flush draw or middle pair I should not allow him proceeding cheaply and catch his kicker on the river.
If he has Q you have no pot odds to proceed.
For me that means bet and fold to raise (only Maniac will raise the agressor with flush draw and paired board).

[@bsolute_luck]

tough without reads really because he could be doing this with 99, the Q, or some stupid 8. the problem obviously then comes when he raises your turn bet (which i would do with any hand i was raising on the flop with).

so really my default would probably be to check/call down because if i bet and he doesn't have the Queen, he will probably fold, and any trickiness, he's raising and it'll be difficult for me to call. i'd rather just get to showdown.

the next obvious difficulty is if he is on a flush draw and we give him a cheap showdown. sadly on this hand, i'll have to give it to him and hope for the best.

[Vote4Pedro]

I think you have to bet

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to bet

[/ QUOTE ]

since my post clearly suggests check/calling, could you explain your line please.

[Vote4Pedro]

I just don't see him raising with a worse hand, however, he'll be happy to call down with a midpair type hand...Also, if he was drawing, I don't want him to get a free look at the river.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't see him raising with a worse hand, however, he'll be happy to call down with a midpair type hand...Also, if he was drawing, I don't want him to get a free look at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess w/o reads, neither one of us will come to an aggreement as any line could be correct. so i'll just say "that is another line to take".

[Vote4Pedro]

I just read your original post, and you didn't even mention/consider bet/folding. Why are you so opposed to folding here? I can't think of a single situation where check/calling down is good. If I'm against a LAG/Idiot, I'm gonna make it to showdown, but theres absolutely no way I'm checking the turn. Against a passive/neutral/TAGish/unknown, you should be able to safely fold to a turn raise...

He probably just have top pair. Freakin bet out. He doesnt have trip queens given his preflop move.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
I just read your original post, and you didn't even mention/consider bet/folding. Why are you so opposed to folding here? I can't think of a single situation where check/calling down is good. If I'm against a LAG/Idiot, I'm gonna make it to showdown, but theres absolutely no way I'm checking the turn. Against a passive/neutral/TAGish/unknown, you should be able to safely fold to a turn raise...

[/ QUOTE ]

then you didn't really read what i posted.

i didn't mention folding because as a default i could play this way. i didn't mention folding because i would fold this against passive ABC players, and i thought i clearly discussed why bet/folding isn't always the best line and why i took the check/call line.

i also added the bad side to check/calling. if you're going to fold, why even bet is my question then because you're only folding hands you have crushed, except for a flush draw.

the reason i check/call is because i think he may bluff at this, it is a bluffable board for a worse hand.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
He probably just have top pair. Freakin bet out. He doesnt have trip queens given his preflop move.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif ???