MLHE advise for 20/40 - crap?

[oxymoron]

A five-handed $20-$40 game. A good player opens with a raise under-the-gun. You are in the small blind with the K-Q and everyone folds to you. What do you do?

I'll post the books advise after some of you have responded. I don't play high stakes but I would be shocked if you answer the way the book does.

I think it's an easy raise 5-handed.

[Grisgra]

I raise, then lose.

[oxymoron]

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I raise, then lose.

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I think it's a raise or fold situation depending on the player raising UTG. I think calling sucks though why give the BB 5:1 to see a flop?

Here is the book's advise:

Call. In a full game, when a good player opens with a raise in early position, you should fold king-queen offsuit unless you are in the big blind. The reason is because the good player rates to have A-A, K-K, Q-Q, J-J, A-K, or A-Q, and many of these hands dominate yours. But in a five-handed game, a good player will raise on a much wider range of hands like pocket eights, sevens, and sixes, as well as ace-jack, ace-ten, ace-nine suited, king-jack, queen-jack suited, and so forth. Your hand is worth a play, especially since you are already partially in. We would also cold-call a raise on the button having to put in the full amount.

[baronzeus]

I voted call before reading the response. KQ isn't looking great against his range and there's no reason to isolate him with this sort of hand, out of position. You can lead a lot flops into him and put BB in a tough spot as well.


PS this situation JUST came up in the game I was playing. He raises UTG, folded to me and I call, BB calls. I have KcQd, flop Jc9c8c, I bet, both call, turn Qh, I bet, BB calls, button folds...I ended up winning the hand.

[Danenania]

3-bet.

A.) A "good" player in a 5-handed Party 20/40 game has a much wider range than a good player in the MLHE book does. We have great equity against a 30/20 type's range here.

B.) Since he's a good player, there is a lot of value in making him fold weak A-high to us on a whole bunch of flops.

C.) Knocking the BB out is very important, both for taking his 1sb uncontested and vastly increasing our chances of taking pot without a SD postflop.

[Grisgra]

I'd generally raise, but the book's advice isn't horrible, KQ is a nice hand that may dominate many hands the BB calls with. Calling here isn't obviously wrong.

[baronzeus]

Just did a quick pokerstove against my UTG 5 handed range and it returned about 50/50. Being OOP sucks, but like others have said, using initiative to make him fold A high is good. However, you can also get into a lot of trouble postflop if you are dominated or run into a better hand.

Basically, use your own judgment, and make sure to take into account BB's nature in your decision. If he's the type to call down a lot, 3betting is bad in a lot of cases.

[MAxx]

I voted fold, but I think it depends on what kind of good player he is, table dynamics, my image etc. If its a tyte pf good player, I'm prolly going to fold. If it is a laggier good player who respects my 3bets or is really likely to have a worse hand on avg...I'll 3bet.

[Victor]

3bet against a tag. call against a lag.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
Just did a quick pokerstove against my UTG 5 handed range and it returned about 50/50. Being OOP sucks, but like others have said, using initiative to make him fold A high is good. However, you can also get into a lot of trouble postflop if you are dominated or run into a better hand.

Basically, use your own judgment, and make sure to take into account BB's nature in your decision. If he's the type to call down a lot, 3betting is bad in a lot of cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

a lot of tough players are not folding ace high very easily after the flop. thats why i prefer calling against many players. its cool if the bb comes along too since thats somewhat dead money.

[kiddo]

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I'd generally raise, but the book's advice isn't horrible, KQ is a nice hand that may dominate many hands the BB calls with. Calling here isn't obviously wrong.

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Agree, if raiser is tricky it can sometimes be better to have a predictable blind in to protect u against the ugliest tricks.

The problem is more that if our only read is "a good player" we should think about getting a better read or leave the table.

[Jeff W]

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Agree, if raiser is tricky it can sometimes be better to have a predictable blind in to protect u against the ugliest tricks.

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Your logic is sound, but I suspect the hidden benefit of getting it HU and splitting the dead money 2 ways instead of 3 almost always overwhelms post flop considerations.

[Seether]

I call here, I think 3 betting just sets yourself up to lose too much money when either bb or utg has a big hand. Not to mention that if UTG is a decent player he will likely put you to the test on raggy flops. I think being OOP with this hand for 3 small bets against an UTG raiser is a losing proposition. Id rather let the bb come along for cheap and evaluate on the flop since you are going to need to make a pair majority of the time to win the pot with KQ here. I just dont think the UTG raiser is getting away from his hand on most flops, leaving you in a tough position on the turn where majority of the time you do not have a pair.

[StellarWind]

Anything could be right here depending on a more detailed read of both opponents:

Not all good players play a zillion hands from Button+2 and if you happen to be up against a pretty tight range it's not wrong to save your money and fold, especially if BB also plays well.

Calling should be profitable most of the time as a fit-or-fold effort. This is a strategy that you want to try cheaply and if you do manage to pair your hand then BB's money is looking pretty dead so there is no urgency in forcing him out preflop. Plus BB may not overcall preflop anyway, especially if he respects that your coldcall means that there are now two pretty good hands in the pot.

Raising is technically an incorrect answer to the question because while it is often the best play I wouldn't then agree that Villain is a good player. But if you match up well versus his range and he doesn't play really well postflop then isolating him could be the way to go. Just remember that sometimes when raising is profitable, calling is even more profitable.

[sammy_g]

In general, Ciaffone and Brier advocate cold-calling too often, but I don't think a call is so terrible here. All of the options are reasonable.

[wheelz]

hard to say without more of a read, but if all i knew where that he had tag stats i think i'd fold. i 3-bet it fairly often too though.

[TomBrooks]

I voted call and was going to post it before I read the thread. But I'm not worthy of posting in this forum. There are too many poker geniuses in here that can't even tolerate seeing my inferior suggestions. So I figured instead of having to hear more bull crap from the know-it-alls in case I posted what I thought and it was wrong, I'd vote anonymously and then check the answer.

Since I got it right, I guess I won't have to put up with any grief for the moment. Perhaps for just this one thread, I will be given dispensation to post without being personally attacked.

I realize the fact that I knew the correct answer and 79% of the respondents got it wrong (64 votes at the time of this post) is probably just another stroke of luck for me.

Just like I realize the fact that noone from the AggroDonkey Club accepted my recent challenge to take any group of hand posts and compare our suggestions with the results to see who would have won or lost the most is not because anyone was worried I would embarress them by winning. It was because they can't be bothered wasting their time with such an unknowledgable person as myself. Yea, that's the ticket.

Haha. Next.

[wheelz]

even if your "challenge" proved that your lines lost less in the hands you chose, that doesn't mean the line you chose was the right play over the long run. i can't believe i have to explain that to someone with as many posts as you have, but there you go, your challenge is pointless. we don't post here for competition, most people just care about learning how to play poker. just let it go man, you're not impressing anyone. i assure you no one here is afraid of losing to you in a poker smarts challenge.

[TomBrooks]

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we don't post here for competition, most people just care about learning how to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well what do you know? Thats what I want. And thats what I thought these forums were all about. Unfortunately, some of your buddies seem to have lost sight of that.

Why don't you take our message to them? Tell them to get off my back. Remind them that this is an open forum. Suggest to them that when they disagree with someones idea they criticise or refute it in a kind and respectful manner. Suggest to them that they try to avoid embarrasing and/or insulting people. And you might want to give them a clue that condensending suggestions that someone just go away doesn't exactly fit the bill either. Maybe ask them to imagine, just pretend, that when they respond to someone they are responding to a person, to a human being. Take that message back to your tribe and let me know what they say.

[Victor]

hi tom brooks,


i challenge u to hu .05/.10

btw, i agree with call

[baronzeus]

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.05/.10

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Victor went BUSTO!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TomBrooks]

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hi tom brooks, i challenge u to hu .05/.10

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Victor,
I have exactly 913 hands of HU play to my name, I'm -1BB/100, and compared to my SH game, my HU game is not good. What does that tell you? /images/graemlins/confused.gif However, I'll still play you a match. Evenings EST are usually good for me. Drop me a pm.

[tolbiny]

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.05/.10

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Victor went BUSTO!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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There is no way i can ever imagine how tht could happen (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=mediumholdem&Number=42186 06&Searchpage=1&Main=4218606&Words=+Victor&topic=& Search=true#Post4218606)

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.05/.10

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Victor went BUSTO!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way i can ever imagine how tht could happen (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=mediumholdem&Number=42186 06&Searchpage=1&Main=4218606&Words=+Victor&topic=& Search=true#Post4218606)

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the precise reason why i will go busto....should be fun tho.