Overthinking yourself out of the pot.

[ArchAngel71857]

Ok, here is a good example of overcomplicating things.

1/2 at party. don't really have a read on anyone yet, but seems like a small bit tighter than most party games. maybe 1 or two less people to the flop.

in the CO and get J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, player to my left cold calls, I reraise, BB caps, three of us call.

Flop comes reverse devil 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP calls, I'm thinking because of preflop I am up against another pocket pair that beats me. I dont think anyone would open raise with less than 99, or maybe TT. I also am wary of BB going for the check raise, and contemplate folding. The pot is big enough however, that i call hoping to turn either a 9, J, or a card to give me more info (maybe an A, K, or Q to let me know where i stand). So i call as does BB.

Turn is 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . BB bets, UTG+1 raises, MP cold calls. Here I think, I am definitely beat, if not by PF raiser, by PF capper. Maybe BB has A9? maybe MP has A9/K9/T9 and just sucks. maybe i suck and should give my money to a worthy cause. maybe i should just start mugging people. I think at least UTG+1 and BB have me beat with a bigger boat or maybe the quads. I fold.

River comes 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif. Checked around.

MP who called the whole was showed down K4o. UTG+1 who open raised lays down the unbeatable J8o. BB capper took down the pot with Q5s. now my toe hurts because i kicked the chair. my only consolation is that i will someday meet these outlaws again, and afterwards sleep on a big pile of cash.

Now to the critique. Would you have folded the turn. My biggest problem is my flop play. I feel like i overthought myself out of aggression and i should have jsut raised then. Even so, i don't know if it would have done any good. if someone is raising PF with J8o, i'm never putting him on that in a million years. How would you have played the streets differently.


-AA

[lil']

Raise the flop. There is no reason to automatically put the raiser on a hand that beats yours. It may have changed things.

As for the turn, yes, the raise looks scary, but he could have a 5 or a smaller pocket pair. I think you gave up too soon. You said you thought you were behind to the pre-flop raiser, but you'll never know since you didn't ever test him.

[Dynasty]

my only consolation is that i will someday meet these outlaws again, and afterwards sleep on a big pile of cash.

Everyone here seems to say this even when they play as badly as you played this hand. You don't seem to have any advantage over these opponents beyond starting hand selection. If you're lucky, that will allow you to break-even. They completely outplayed you. Your confidence of beating them in the future seems quite unsupported by the evidence.

[slavic]

When I see a 3 to a quad board, to me that means we start the Pre-flop again. My big pocket pairs are now huge monsters and should be bet as such. If I'm about to lose to quads we'll know it in a second or two. Ask yourself how many hands bring in a 9 when there is a raise and reraise preflop?

Now of the flop is AAA you need to watch out a bit. It's still not likely the A is out there, but it's a lot more likely than a 9 in this spot.

[GuyOnTilt]

Preflop: Good reraise

Flop: Horrible call. Raise exactly 100% of the time here. You have to be confident that you are ahead here, and charge overcards the max to draw.

Turn: Raise the flop and you won't be faced with these situations.

Horribly played. Don't be so confident you can beat these opponents if this is your normal playing style.

[JohnShaft]

Everyone's pretty much summed this up.
Why does UTG need a pocket pair 10's and above? UTG raise even in a solid game is more likely to be AK/AQ. If he has them it's still very likely he is betting out as he is ahead of everything but a PP (and drawing very live to that). He's going nowhere.

Scared about the BB checkraising? Raise, if he reraises you then consider your options. This is a classic "raise the flop for information".

It's 1/2 at Party Arch on a 999 board. They aren't all staying in with monsters. It's 1/2 at Party. They're just trying to catch Kings, Queens, Aces to outdraw you. Allow for their horrible play at times. This is where knowing your players is really helpful.
PS. I hope you took notes on the players involved after this hand?

[slamdunkpro]

Did you just suffer a bad beat recently?

This is what looks to me like "whipped puppy syndrome"

It's 1/2 not 20/40 AND YOU FLOPPED A BOAT. Most likely they have short pairs or paint with rag and are just looking to catch a boat.

Make'em pay for that river card and really feel em out.

Lee Jones says "if you suffer a bad beat with a monster hand in low limit and you don't lose a lot you didn't bet hard enough"

[thwang99]

"This is what looks to me like "whipped puppy syndrome""

How very true, this is a real disease that occurs in poker. I think when you're on a losing streak, the best thing to do is play tighter but stay aggressive, yes hard to do when you're playing with a beaten mentality (not just that session for say for 2 weeks). - Tony

[ArchAngel71857]

This is what looks to me like "whipped puppy syndrome"

lol. how true. I did not have a bad beat at this particular session, but more along the lines of some weird stuff happening. What makes me so mad is that the reason for this "bad beat" is me. The only thing that prevented me from winning this pot was me.

[j.k.]

I understand that most everyone on this forum worships the ground you walk on, but is that reason to be such an ass?
Almost every reply I see you make is condescending and rude.
I thought this forum was intended for constructive discussion, not arrogant attacks. If he played the hand badly, explain why. Advice from someone with as much experience as you could be very helpful. Why just berate the poster and add nothing of use?
j.k.

[Dynasty]

There is more to being a winning player than just knowing why this hand was played badly. Nobody needed to tell ArchAngel71857 that he botched this hand. The tone of his own post made it clear he had figured that out himself.

However, there was a bigger problem I saw which has shown up in many others' posts. That need to be pointed out rather than be ignored. People seem to think they have a huge advantage over opponents who limp in with K4o, J8o, and Q5s. They think they're going to clean up against these opponents based on starting hand selection alone. But, they won't.

If you don't combine a good starting hand selection with good post-flop skills, you've got very little chance to be a winning player yourself and no chance to "sleep on a big pile of cash". ArchAngel was fooling himself.

Telling him "JJ is going to be good there 80% of the time" is not nearly as useful as driving my point home.

[bernie]

ive been seeing this in many posts too. 'man, look at those fish and how lucky they are...just wait, i'll get it back' blah blah.

i also hear this from newer players in the cardroom who try and act like they really know what theyre doing but dont. especially the wannabe-'rounders' guys. before one talks a little smack, they oughtta make sure their games are on solid ground. i had a buddy who thought it'd be fun to go to the cardroom and take the 'fish'. my internal thought was, 'uh, bud, you are the fish'. then he proceeds to go and fold an openended str8 on the flop to one bet. yeah, he really had it over his opponents.(this may or may not pertain to the original poster. it is a general statement based on what ive seen in other threads and in games both online and live. no offense is meant. but i find it kind of humorous to hear/read at the tables)

i think it's fine to state stuff like that to less serious buds/players, theyre not going to call you on it the way you will be called on it here. on this forum, every flaw is under scrutiny. including thinking you may be better than you actually are. sometimes you have to fall down to earth before you can really advance your game.

i dont think dyno's response was that harsh. (and believe me, ive seen him post harsh stuff before that i didnt agree with) i think it should help the poster think about his game a little deeper if he doesnt take it as a personal attack.

b

[TBone]

There is such a thing as brutal honesty, and in the posts of Dynasty's that I've read--I've seen a lot of brutal honesty. He's direct, to the point, and blunt, and sometimes that can be a bit painful to the original poster. Can you look at his post and say it's not true though? I don't see a lack of constructive criticism in the post, I see Dynasty suggesting Arch needs to clean up post flop play before he can consistently win at the game.

Funny thing is, Arch knows how the hand was played poorly. The subject says it all.

T

[ArchAngel71857]

J.k.

don't worry about it. I appreciate the defense, but Dynasty pointed out something that was eluding me. These people did out play me. But now that i know my greatest enemy is myself, I am better prepared to play against people like that. A lot of posts have dealt with overestimating your opponenents, and this was my first expierience with such. Dynasty's response while cruel, hurtful, humiliating, sarcastic, cynical, cold, rude, mean, not nice, ugly, blunt, brutal, insulting, condescending, and down right assholish was still full of value and good advice. I mean honestly, do i get any better when i read anything by Sklansky? I'll leave to others to contemplate and discuss.

Seriously, I was grateful to be put in my place by a winning player such as Dynasty, who is beautfiul, smart, intelligent, right, and smells nice too. While I do agree that sometimes more people spend more time insulting play than actually analyzing play and giving advice, i don't really give two $#!&$. I got the information i wanted. if he wanted to talk about my mother in the process, then fine. But thanks for sticking up for me. Its always nice ot have a friend when the school yard bully makes fun of my Kangaroo shoes, which were so cool by the way because they had a pouch in the tongue, where i put pennies. Shows you!



Regards,
AA

[Mike Gallo]

I understand that most everyone on this forum worships the ground you walk on, but is that reason to be such an ass? I thought most people here worshipped Tommy Angelo and Andy Fox. I don't know if Dynasty has any worshippers.

Dynasty's response while cruel, hurtful, humiliating, sarcastic, cynical, cold, rude, mean, not nice, ugly, blunt, brutal, insulting, condescending, and down right assholish was still full of value and good advice.

What did he write to offend you, that you misplayed a hand and would continue to misplay it until you learned to play postflop better? Personally I would send him a pm and thank him for the insight.

Its ironic, I often hear players in low limit games say they can't wait to play in the higher limits because they will beat those games because the games will have better players in them. If a player can't beat a lower limit game, why does he or she think that he or she can beat a higher limit game?

Don't take any of this personal. Growth hurts. So does the truth sometimes. Read the message and pay less attention to the words.

Michael

[Inthacup]

What did he write to offend you, that you misplayed a hand and would continue to misplay it until you learned to play postflop better?

It was pretty clear to me that AA was joking when he wrote this. I'm sure he initially took offense to it, but from the tone of his post, I think he's honestly thankful for what Dynasty wrote. Overall, I think AA's reply was hilarious.


Don't take any of this personal. Growth hurts. So does the truth sometimes. Read the message and pay less attention to the words.

I agree completely.

[ArchAngel71857]

What did he write to offend you, that you misplayed a hand and would continue to misplay it until you learned to play postflop better? Personally I would send him a pm and thank him for the insight.

Nothing. it was a joke between me, j.k., and dynasty, but thanks for the advice. say, did i misplay the flop?

Its ironic, I often hear players in low limit games say they can't wait to play in the higher limits because they will beat those games because the games will have better players in them. If a player can't beat a lower limit game, why does he or she think that he or she can beat a higher limit game?

Is this in response to something i wrote, or was it a related topic?

I dont take any of this personal, i thought i was trying to explain that in my last post. If i let my emotions get involved in getting berated, then i won't do a very good job of keeping them under control at the table, like say when someone beats my K high SF with a royal and then pours sugar in my gas tank. if i can't be passive with that, then i will lose so much money.

-AA