BB vs SB bigstack: facing flop mini-bet

[45suited]

I fold in spots like this, even though I have the better hand, I'd say, a majority of the time. My stack is fine, I just let it go and play good bubble poker. But I wonder, is raising FPS? This is a 22, and I can maintain a fine ROI just letting my hand go in spots like this, but still... Any thoughts on how to play the hand other than folding? Calling (just to see how serious he is) crossed my mind, but I didn't want to face two more bets and get bled by the bigstack. PP ($22)

Let's say the flop was Q-8-2 rainbow. (No draws.) I have the same hand (middle pair / weak kicker). Again, I have a decent stack vs the bigstack. He mini-bets. Anyone raise here, or do you just get out of the way?

UTG ( $745 )
UTG+1 ( $1535 )
CO ( $1470 )
Button ( $625 )
SB ( $2425 )
BB (HERO) ( $1200 )

Blinds(50/100)

Dealt to HERO [ 6c 8s ]
UTG folds.
UTG+1 folds.
CO folds.
Button folds.
SB calls [50].
BB (HERO) checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 8d, 5c ]
SB bets [100].
HERO folds.

[tigerite]

I fold as well here. I don't think there's a whole lot of point getting involved. Even though this is a low draw flop, if you call then he's still got the option on future streets of just folding when you're ahead or calling/raising when he's ahead.. making you commit more chips to the pot on his terms. When you have 11BB left, and good FE on the guys to act after you.. it's not the time to be going to war with him, I think.

I fold here as well. Your stack is comfortable enough to fold this and whatever cards come on the turn and river will scare you.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold as well here. I don't think there's a whole lot of point getting involved. Even though this is a low draw flop, if you call then he's still got the option on future streets of just folding when you're ahead or calling/raising when he's ahead.. making you commit more chips to the pot on his terms. When you have 11BB left, and good FE on the guys to act after you.. it's not the time to be going to war with him, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the very type of hand why, in response to Dr Jeckyll's post where he pushed from the SB with 79o, I recommend calling, and betting any flop. The stacks are not deep enough for the BB facing even a mini-bet to get too frisky.

[wuwei]

I also fold. We just don't have enough room to manuever with our stack to get involved here.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

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I fold as well here. I don't think there's a whole lot of point getting involved. Even though this is a low draw flop, if you call then he's still got the option on future streets of just folding when you're ahead or calling/raising when he's ahead.. making you commit more chips to the pot on his terms. When you have 11BB left, and good FE on the guys to act after you.. it's not the time to be going to war with him, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the very type of hand why, in response to Dr Jeckyll's post where he pushed from the SB with 79o, I recommend calling, and betting any flop. The stacks are not deep enough for the BB facing even a mini-bet to get too frisky.

[/ QUOTE ]

One problem I feel like happens a lot is that when I bet people go over the top and I fold, when they bet and I go over the top they call... although this is usually pre flop. I will try it. Do you bet any textured flop since there was no pf raising?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
One problem I feel like happens a lot is that when I bet people go over the top and I fold, when they bet and I go over the top they call... although this is usually pre flop. I will try it. Do you bet any textured flop since there was no pf raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on the opponent, stack sizes, blinds, the presence of a short stack, etc. But in your 79o post, I think against a typical opponent on the lower levels, a call followed by a mini-bet (200) will take down most pots. They're just playing survival much of the time (as they should be, that's the point). If the flop bet is called, give it up. Often, they'll be too afraid to bet the turn anyway, and you might back into the better hand by the end anyway. I'm just sayin' that it's better than pushing in the example that you gave. The whole risk / reward thing is way skewed when you push there.

[tigerite]

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I fold as well here. I don't think there's a whole lot of point getting involved. Even though this is a low draw flop, if you call then he's still got the option on future streets of just folding when you're ahead or calling/raising when he's ahead.. making you commit more chips to the pot on his terms. When you have 11BB left, and good FE on the guys to act after you.. it's not the time to be going to war with him, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the very type of hand why, in response to Dr Jeckyll's post where he pushed from the SB with 79o, I recommend calling, and betting any flop. The stacks are not deep enough for the BB facing even a mini-bet to get too frisky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, but in that hand, the BB had 8bb or something left, rather than the 11bb you have here, so it's a closer decision for me. I'm not really sure I'd want to piss about with 97o but I can see the reasoning behind it.

[45suited]

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Absolutely, but in that hand, the BB had 8bb or something left, rather than the 11bb you have here, so it's a closer decision for me. I'm not really sure I'd want to piss about with 97o but I can see the reasoning behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, there are differences (and it depends on your opponent), but I think you'd agree that my line (call, mini-bet) is much better than open pushing with 79o. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[durron597]

If I really think that the SB is making this play with any two cards, I would jam this flop. Sometimes he has me beat and I lose, but the vast vast vast majority of the time I pick up 300 chips.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
If I really think that the SB is making this play with any two cards, I would jam this flop. Sometimes he has me beat and I lose, but the vast vast vast majority of the time I pick up 300 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew that I could count on you to give an opinion other than folding on this hand! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It was tempting, but I just went back to playing robotic SNG survival poker. I think it's an interesting hand at least. Sometimes I wish I had the guts to make plays like you do, but I still had 11 BBs or whatever, which of course, helps my FE but makes the play less necessary. Quite a predicament.

[bennies]

When do the blinds rise?
I just had an original thought (for me) so this is most likely to be a bad idea.

Anyway here it goes. As a 2+2er, Hero has an edge on the field mostly when his stack is between 4 and 10 BB's = time to shove. So maybe committing a portion of our stack to this hand so that, if we loose, Hero will drop into this zone? Of course, if the blinds rise soon we are there already...

[durron597]

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Sometimes I wish I had the guts to make plays like you do, but I still had 11 BBs or whatever, which of course, helps my FE but makes the play less necessary. Quite a predicament.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a hard hand because you have the ugliest possible stack size for this. But sometimes you just have to go with your instincts... opponent was extremely aggressive.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (3 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

SB (t965)
BB (t9850)
Hero (t2685)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t400.

Flop: (t1050) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2060</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: t3510

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

This is a hard hand because you have the ugliest possible stack size for this. But sometimes you just have to go with your instincts... opponent was extremely aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he had a flush draw? Or do you think you actually moved him off an A? If the answer to both of these questions is no, why not let him keep firing?

[45suited]

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When do the blinds rise?

[/ QUOTE ]

The blinds went to 75-150 the very next hand.

I guess the point of my post (and many of my posts) is this: By playing ABC poker, I've been able to achieve very good results on the lower levels. But, I would like to improve as a player. When I go with my instincts, I'm often correct. (Certainly not always by any stretch of the imagination.) My instincts told me that this was a bigstack just auto-betting the flop. Would pushing here be a fish move OR are plays like this what separates the top players from the good players? Meh.

[Vuron00]

If I have a good read on SB and know that he will CB a lot in these situations, I may just call here even though it seems weak.

I've seen a lot of these where guys will always fire at least one shot from the SB, and then check it down to the river if they're called. You could call one bet, and then either fold to another bet on the turn, check behind, or fire your own shot on the turn if it's checked to you.

This pretty much depends on a good read, though.

[durron597]

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This is a hard hand because you have the ugliest possible stack size for this. But sometimes you just have to go with your instincts... opponent was extremely aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he had a flush draw? Or do you think you actually moved him off an A? If the answer to both of these questions is no, why not let him keep firing?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could have had a lot of things but there was a straight draw on that board too, and I felt like I already got paid and just wanted to take the pot down.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Would pushing here be a fish move OR are plays like this what separates the top players from the good players? Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this question. Both pushing here 100% and folding here 100% are fish moves IMO, but folding 100% is certainly not as big of a mistake as pushing 100%. I would say that you should push here against the right opponent with a read to maximize EV, but doing that is only slightly higher EV than just letting it go.

[bennies]

damit, you guys are highjacking my post and ingenious plan to do neither! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
damit, you guys are highjacking my post and ingenious plan to do neither! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We only have a pair of 8s, he has two overs such a huge % of the time that we are ahead that we can't give him a free card. What if we call and then the turn is another over? He could have literally any two so if he fires again we have to fold.

I would not push bottom pair on the flop.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway here it goes. As a 2+2er, Hero has an edge on the field mostly when his stack is between 4 and 10 BB's = time to shove. So maybe committing a portion of our stack to this hand so that, if we loose, Hero will drop into this zone? Of course, if the blinds rise soon we are there already...

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a similar post in MTT a while ago from betgo about trying to get into the "red zone." It's a terrible idea. Your EV in the tournament is obviously going to be higher with 12 BBs than 7 BBs. That your edge is bigger in a situation where everybody has 7 BBs than when everybody has 12 BBs (a notion that may be true but I'm not sure I subscribe to) still doesn't mean that you magically gain EV by dropping to 7 BBs while par still remains 12.

[bennies]

Hi, I know about that discussion, obviously we do better with more chips. However, I wanted to make the point that the chips/block from about 10 to 15 bb's are worth less to Hero than other chips because it is difficult to play this stack size. Therefore, taking a zero EV gamble to get above or below this interval might be worth it.

Now this particular situation with middle pair might not be a zero EV situation to play passively though...

[KingDan]

Against some players this can be raised with any two.

In this situation against an unknown I would raise, you have way too good a hand to fold.