Folding top pair to the turn CR. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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BigEndian

12-20-2005, 10:00 AM

Not many hands on this player either, but he seemed pretty passive. Possibly a calling station type. That doesn't mean he can't get creative (or stupid depending on where you sit).

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Jeffage

12-20-2005, 10:05 AM

I would make this fold live typically, but almost never online. Online there are a number of people who would checkraise any ace in this spot - if you really read him as someone who'd never do this, that's another thing, but it doesn't seem you have a strong read on him. A hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif or even something like 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif is possible. If he has aces up, you have outs. Generally, I probably won't fold this online if I don't know the player well.

Jeff

stigmata

12-20-2005, 10:30 AM

I would usually call here, sometimes the donkbet is a good hand like AK/AQ/AJ/AT, but completely unconnected with the flop. If he has 2 pair you have hidden outs. And like Jeff says, could be pair+draw combo. I think these scenarios + metagame considerations is enough to often call down in these over-aggressive / tricksy games.

catlover

12-20-2005, 10:44 AM

Agree this is a call down situation. In addition to possibilities stated by the other posters, you have hidden outs if he has A2 or A4.

BigEndian

12-20-2005, 11:33 AM

I understand where you're coming from. On the other hand, it should be pretty obvious I have an ace to this player. And the vast majority of the time, players in these seats aren't folding a top pair hand. His play could have been a move, but it looked to me like he was just getting cute/greedy and I didn't want to pay the 2BB in a small pot to look him up. Am I off base here?

- Jim

12-20-2005, 11:42 AM

Short answer: Are you nuts?

BigEndian

12-20-2005, 11:43 AM

Short answer: No.

dave44

12-20-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, it should be pretty obvious I have an ace to this player.

[/ QUOTE ]
You would never call his flop donk once the other guy folds to pop the turn with an overpair?

BigEndian

12-20-2005, 08:02 PM

Sure I would. But I played my hand very much like an unimproved ace would the vast majority of the time.

- Jim

dave44

12-20-2005, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sure I would. But I played my hand very much like an unimproved ace would the vast majority of the time.

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]
Then I don't think you can afford to fold a hand this strong. You're just letting this guy knock you off far too many hands in your range.

goofball

12-21-2005, 08:18 AM

I think this is almost a fold but not quite. If you're opponent is a good second level thinker and knows you probably have an A and knows you'll bet it then he'll checkraise because he has a set. It's stretching to say he knows you know this and will expect you to fold. However, he could be doing it for value with a worse hand or he could just think you're full of [censored]. You mentioned "you thought he was pretty passive" Change 'thoguht' to 'know' and 'pretty' to 'very' and it's a fold ez.

Joe Tall

12-21-2005, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would make this fold live typically, but almost never online. Online there are a number of people who would checkraise any ace in this spot - if you really read him as someone who'd never do this, that's another thing, but it doesn't seem you have a strong read on him. A hand like A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif or even something like 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif is possible. If he has aces up, you have outs. Generally, I probably won't fold this online if I don't know the player well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeff,

I disagree. The pot is small, it's 2 bets to get to the showdown that gives us 8:2 and I don't think we're good better than 25% of the time.

-JT

msk

12-21-2005, 02:49 PM

I recently stopped playing for a weekend and instead closely studied a large number of hands I had put in over the last few months. I found some interesting PT data about a few situations. This is one of them. This is close, but given my data, I would fold. If this pot were larger, I would probably call them down. Or if this were a different player (very loose and aggressive) I would call down.

What I found startled me: The vast majority of times where I was check raised on the turn with a hand like this I was drawing to few outs or dead. I lost a lot of money on small pots to tight unimaginative players who I would never call down live, because it is so easy to hit the call button. NO MORE.

Mark

PS I also found that I was overdoing the flop aggression with hands that were too weak. (My flop aggression was over 3, I think it was too high). I also was betting the river too many times where I got raised (but that's only 1 lost bet)

obsidian

12-21-2005, 03:21 PM

I did just about this exact same thing. Villain is a tag. I'm not sure how good it was still...

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 8 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.66 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.33 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.33 BB

dave44

12-21-2005, 07:57 PM

Flop play makes this one pretty different IMO and I would never fold there fwiw.