$2/$4 hand

[Roland]

Seat 1 is way too loose and can be kinda tricky/ aggro at times; then again she sometimes plays like a total calling station. No notes on the rest yet.



7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (6.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___???
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___

[frappeboy]

I check/fold here. The only time I continue is when I check and a few people fold to someone else's bet.

[TheSalche]

Agree with frappe, 5 way pot with 8s, 3 people caught suited cards and 3 people caught higher cards. Your edge (if any) is very small here and isn't worth wasting bets on since betting here probably will only get rid of one of these guys if any of them.

[Jeffage]

I noticed most people said they check-fold here on 4th, but I think that's more what they think is a correct answer to a post than what they do in reality. You completed 3rd and obv got more callers than you wanted. But now you've caught a scare card despite the facts that many of your opponents caught suited. Call me lag, but I'm betting here - not because I expect to win the pot (far from it actually) but b/c, if I check and it's one bet back to me, I'm going to be tempted to call anyway. So I'd rather bet since it might eliminate one or two people and it will also make the hand easier to play on later streets.

I know the situation looks dire, but I'm not really looking to save bets in spots like this.

Jeff

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
So I'd rather bet since it might eliminate one or two people

[/ QUOTE ]


Does your response change if this is not true?

Jeff, you have to admit that 4th street came down really bad for Roland. Doesn't that make a fold fairly reasonable here?

On the other hand, this is 2/4 and his opponents could all have 3 random cards.

[Jeffage]

I didn't say check-fold wasn't reasonable, just that I wouldn't do it. Since I'm tempted to call if there is a bet and a few callers, I'd rather bet myself since the ace is a scare card after I completed 3rd. Like I said, I'm not expecting to win the pot here with a bet, but it has other benefits.

I understand other good players would see this as a check-fold, and I don't mark it as a bad play. It is the safe play, and it is a reasonable play. It's just not the play I'm making here. But that's me - I can see it both ways.

Jeff

[MRBAA]

I don't complete here once there's someone in and there are many to act. I do call. Then it's easier to check/fold fourth. But hey, they don't all have to have four flushes, kings are semi-dead, you have a live pair and a live A, so as the hand plays I bet it.

[frappeboy]

[ QUOTE ]
but I think that's more what they think is a correct answer to a post than what they do in reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

In reality I still check/fold. I think this is a spot where a lot of people lose money. They feel that they look stupid if they check/fold here especially when catching an ace, but the point is 2 major things have changed since you're initial raise, #1 you got a bunch of callers, #2 They all caught scary stuff. A bet isn't gonna knock out anyone here, and if it does you're only knocking out the people who you'd probably want to call anyways.

[SA125]

I wouldn't have completed 3rd because no none folds, which is why you're in this spot. I'd bet also because you can be put on A's up and might knock a few out. Then again, with spades, diamonds and clubs out, you're likely to be called. But they could just as esily have 3 instead of 4 suits. Check/folding isn't bad, but betting the A isn't either. It's still 4th.

Bet. Your hand is probably still best here. You will probably lose at least 1 to 2 players with your bet. You took the good aggresive initiative on 3rd. I think you need to follow up here. There is no reason to wilt here yet.

As for what follows after, depneds upon if you're rearised here or what 5th street bring everybody who is left.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
As for what follows after, depneds upon if you're rearised here or what 5th street bring everybody who is left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we go...


7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (6.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls

5th Street - (5.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___???
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks

I also would complete on 3rd hoping to get it HU with Seat 1. But, regardless of likely being ahead at this point, if I get 4 callers, the hand now looks unappealing. The raise did not work.

Given your completion, 8A8A rises to mind in the more suspicious. I might bet 3rd and proceed with caution. Who knows? Maybe it'll end up between you and Seat 1 after all. Also, you could be in worse shape. Loss of the 6 is bad but you did improve kicker-wise. Diamonds and spades could be scary but there are relatively many out.
Fold to any raise.

Well, 5th didn't do much for you. You lost one of your eights. Someone has an onboard pair, although with a dead deuce. On the positive side, no one got 3 suits or strt going. Your jack is not wonderful, but it is live and you do have the ace. But i want to check here and take the free card that the deuces are giving. It looks like you will get 2 checks after you, so 5th should be free. If it is bet, then call. Your Ace is a key card here now. But I would doubt a bet after you check on 5th.

As for betting 5th, at this point I don;t see it accomplishing enough. Yes it might drop 1, but I would rather draw for free for that needed ace. Looks like a hand of mediocre cards out there.

I say put money in the pot. It continues the appearance that you mean business and I don't think you should allow for a free round. Seats 5 and 7 had to brick. Seat 8 is a bit of a mystery. I would suspect a flush draw much less than I had at 4th. Maybe he's got you beat with 2 pair but he's scared of AA88. Maybe he's only got a pair of 2's. You'll soon find out.
If seat 8 calls, I'm then really hoping for 8 or A though I think J would probably be sufficient.

If you end up winning the pot, great. If you don't, consider the impression you will have created with your aggressive play.

[Michael Emery]

Try to check-raise the one seat on fourth. If she dosent bet maybe the 8 will, then raise as well. Since this is 2-4 I'm assuming most arent dropping here on fourth, despite the scare card you caught. If it gets checked around on fourth it really dosent matter much since your opponents were unlikely to fold anyway. Then you can rethink things on fifth.

Mike Emery

[frappeboy]

Just for the hell of it I ran a simulation where I gave your opponents COMPLETELY RANDOM hole cards. You can do this with Wilson Turbo 7 Card stud. In a show down your hand wins 27% of the time (20% is break even in a 5 handed pot). Imagine what it is when you factor in that people don't just play random hole cards. Also, you have a huge playing disadvantage. What are you gonna do if someone makes 3 of a suit on 5th street? How about on 6th street? Are you just gonna call the whole way with the pair of 8s no matter what? Not only are the percentages against you but you'll never know where you stand and will make big mistakes one way or the other. A bet isn't gonna knock anyone out here. People don't think "Well he raised he might have pocket aces and he just hit trips" they just hit the call button.

I think if you're going further with this hand on 4th street, you have a leak you need to plug.

Roland, were you going to post the follow-up to this?

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
Roland, were you going to post the follow-up to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (1.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (6.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls

5th Street - (5.50 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx T/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___checks___folds
Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 5: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif___checks___calls

6th Street - (8.50 BB)

Hero: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif___???
Seat 7: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif___
Seat 8: xx xx 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets

Surprised you bet 5th.

Fold 6th.

I give up at this point. With no read on seat 8, it's difficult to pin down but, assuming weak, the bet is ominous. There's lotsa spades out but you could be looking at a flush. For that matter, a boat is not inconceivable. Also, Ks or Qs up looks huge.

I would check/call or possibly check/fold on 4th. 3 of 4 opponents have 2 card flushes with an over card. Even though almost all your cards are live it's a scary situation. Even if only 1 of the 3 potential flushes are actually there on 4th, you're still a dog to 3 opponents going to only to 6th street with this hand situation against this board. I'd have to know where the bet came from to determine if I'd call.

JMO - Knoll

[MRBAA]

A guiding principle for me in these games is that the players make many, many more calling errors than they do folding errors. So when I play fast on 3rd and 4th, which I often do as a semi-bluff, I only continue when I improve or think there's a decent chance I'm best. Otherwise, I abjectly give up and check fold, which is what you should have done on fifth here. The real money to be made in these games -- and they have never been juicier -- is simply by betting when you are best and getting called. Sometimes the pots get big and the other players get tricky and you are advised to call -- as my post the other day. But often it goes like this, pot not big, hand not improved, opponents not leaving, time to stop betting because now you don't want to get called.