But I've Got a Spade!

10/20 6 handed

TAGy player opens 2 OTB. 3 folds. I call in the BB with 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. HU.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check-fold? What's the plan?

[Lmn55d]

i would check/call the flop and reevaluate on the turn. It's gonna be a sketchy spot, but your hand could be good, he usually doesn't have a spade, and your 2 set outs should be money.

[7ontheline]

I like Llama's line of check/call and re-eval. If it's a TAG who will lay down hands you can c/r the turn occasionally as a semibluff and take it down. You may still have the best hand even. I think check-folding every time the board is monotone is going to miss out on money in the long run, although you may reduce variance some.

[Jeff W]

Check-call until the river(barring a 5) then figure out the best action from there. It's hard for your opponent to have a better made hand and a better draw.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call until the river(barring a 5) then figure out the best action from there. It's hard for your opponent to have a better made hand and a better draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. It's usually one or the other (and sometimes neither).

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call until the river(barring a 5) then figure out the best action from there. It's hard for your opponent to have a better made hand and a better draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is dead on. Folding prior to the river is out of the question in my opinion.

Cartman

[NLfool]

TAG player hits this flop fairly often.

scenarios are

1) he has you beat but has no spade
2) he has some overs + a gutter
3) he has overs + gutter + a spade
4) he has air but I'm sure some overs


I guess you only know, lots of TAG will fire once with their overs + gutter but may freeze up on the turn.

I guess the deciding factor is that you've got to call, call, call. Well that sucks and you're OoP with a Very vulnerable hand so you make the minimum when ahead, you can't even realistically value bet if a spade comes and can only check/call if he even bets. Your equity isn't particularly high in most instances and you stand to make so little.

Maybe if a non 9 - A spade comes you can CR this.

[Victor]

check call flop and turn. maybe check fold river.

[Drontier]

i misread this post at first for you open in MP with 5/5 and Button 3 bets. and thats the flop. does this change things?

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call until the river(barring a 5) then figure out the best action from there. It's hard for your opponent to have a better made hand and a better draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I like this.

[Petteri]

I think check-raising flop is usually best play if opponent can lay down hands. If he has no spade or top pair he will fold instantly.

If he calls or 3-bets you can fold.

Or is this line too simple?

[elindauer]

Play it fast and let the chips fall where they may. You'll rarely be way behind, and when you are, feel free to river the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Make sure you give him a chance to fold the flop though, since this flop might look horrible to him. Bet out or c/r.

-Eric

[dave44]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-call until the river(barring a 5) then figure out the best action from there. It's hard for your opponent to have a better made hand and a better draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
This board isn't gonna be pretty by the river for a pair of 5's most of the time (when spades don't hit). I think check-calling the flop and turn announces too loudly that our hand is weak and we don't want to have to call a river bet.

This seems like a pretty good flop for our hand. Why not check-raise it now and get this guy to lay down hands with some outs?

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a pretty good flop for our hand. Why not check-raise it now and get this guy to lay down hands with some outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he will not fold often enough:

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard for your opponent to not have either a better made hand or a better draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

But I agree this isnt 100% true so we could try betting out and call down if raised because sometimes he will hate this flop.

I'm betting this flop roughly 100% of the time. Check-calling down is just bad.

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 6 handed

TAGy player opens 2 OTB. 3 folds. I call in the BB with 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. HU.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check-fold? What's the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably check/call down because I just can't freaking think of a good plan. That flop hits a TAG pretty often. If you check/raise the flop, if I were the villian I'd do one of two things depending on my hand:

a) hit the flop, but no /images/graemlins/spade.gif: I call your flop C/R and raise a non-spade on the turn to charge your draw.
b) missed or hit, but have a /images/graemlins/spade.gif: I call your flop C/R and raise the turn regardless of what hits, looking for fold equity plus taking a free showdown hoping to win those times we're both on a spade draw, but I have the better spade.

Both lines look about the same to you, so I don't see any way to get a good read on what the villian TAG really has. I don't think a flop C/R is folding anything except hands he should fold (completely whiffed non-spade overcards) and maybe 77/88/99. So based on the FTOP, a flop C/R isn't forcing him to make a mistake very often.

If a non-spade hits the turn, what's the plan? Betting and getting raised sucks. Checking and letting him value bet made hands sucks. Letting him check behind drawing spades also sucks. If a spade does hit, donking may get him to fold beat hands correctly or call top pair incorrectly, but getting raised would really suck.

Hmm, I haven't helped much /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think I'm back to calling down. I want to see showdown, I might have a lot of spade outs, but I have a hard time seeing how I can get the villian to make a mistake playing aggressive on this board.