omfg not another pf Q!!

[Drontier]

sorry guys, what the heck do you do with A2o,A3o,A4o,A5o, A6o in the sb when button limps? What if 2 limpers? I've been completing them, but my winrate for these hands are beyond bad. I think I should open fold them in the bb. Am I just running bad, or way too loose pf?

[Victor]

i play a5o or better sometimes.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry guys, what the heck do you do with A2o,A3o,A4o,A5o, A6o in the sb when button limps? What if 2 limpers? I've been completing them, but my winrate for these hands are beyond bad. I think I should open fold them in the bb. Am I just running bad, or way too loose pf?

[/ QUOTE ]
I send the little ones to the bit bucket.

A7o-A5o I usually look left and if I see a passive player I complete. If I think the BB likes bashing limpers then I don't need to be involved.

I just had a new idea. Maybe against 60/20 buttons and tight blinds I should raise to isolate? The idea is that the button would raise with an ace so a flopped ace is an easy win and otherwise I play for my unimproved ace to be the best hand.

Well maybe this is whacky idea. Tell me what you think.

[TheMetetron]

Muck most of those... limp the middle ones, raise the bigger ones. Tough to understand, I know /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Edit: I'm assuming a 1/2 blind structure, not a 2/3.

[Drontier]

i think i suck at poker. and am too cheap to buy lessons. free tutoring please?

[TStoneMBD]

against an open button limp i am completing A2o and sometimes raising these hands but rarely anymore since it represents ace high which is exactly what you dont want to reprsent. id rather raise J8o then A2o in these spots. i dont see why people are folding A2o in the SB against a button limp. thats a huge hand with alot of equity.

[TheMetetron]

Because I've been spraying in the blinds recently somehow and am trying to correct it. I suspect this may be one of the causes. It's also possible I am making things up in my mind.

[Lmn55d]

I play them all and would only raise low/mid unsuited aces if I felt the BB folds often, which is very rare at 10/20.

[NLfool]

how can you fold any of them?

[Drontier]

im happy to see theres at least discussion here and im not a complete idiot for posting this.

[Entity]

I limp all of them.

[Ryan11]

I don't fold any A in the SB if I can just complete.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't fold any A in the SB if I can just complete.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I answered this question one way, then watched my own play today.

I played exactly as you said... I never folded an Ace in the SB for 1/4 of a BB. So please change my answer; I apparently don't know my own play.

[flawless_victory]

call or raise depending on how button sb... if they will never fold for one bet, call.. sometimes raise.

if this is realy giving you problems (yikes?), you could just move up in stakes and mostly eliminate this problem.

[Drontier]

well i limp with all, and realize somehow that I am like (.99) with these hands. (ok exaggeration) but i think it would be much better off if i just folded them. i suck with these. really badly.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Muck most of those... limp the middle ones, raise the bigger ones. Tough to understand, I know /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Edit: I'm assuming a 1/2 blind structure, not a 2/3.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often do you think A2 is the currently best hand in this situation?

If we assume that it always beats the button, which is probably pretty close then that just leaves the one random hand in the BB. 12/13 * 11/13 are his odds of no ace / no pair, which means you have the best hand 78% of the time.

Even if you give the button some chance of limping a better ace, you still have the best hand the overwhelming majority of the time. To do anything but raise as a default play seems difficult to defend.

Put it another way... if you were the button, or the big blind, what do you want the SB to do with this hand? I want him to fold, and if not then call, and I'd least like him to raise. So there you go.

-Eric

[Subby]

If the button is limping and the BB has a random hand, shouldn't you presume you have the best hand pf and raise? I realize you are oop, but you get the intiative here and have a pretty decent chance of getting hu.

Or are you just giving BB odds to call with most of his holdings?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If the button is limping and the BB has a random hand, shouldn't you presume you have the best hand pf and raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
The implied odds on this undertaking are horrible. If you raise A4 and get heads up with button there are only two possible outcomes to the hand:

1. You take it down on the flop or turn.

2. You go to showdown and lose.

I'm exaggerating, but the fact remains that you are OOP versus a Villain who has something like T9 and almost always knows who has the best hand. Meanwhile you have no idea if your ace is good or not.

Of course if BB does play and he probably will that's just terrible.

[Subby]

Cool - thanks for taking the time to explain that. I am often guilty of raising and not really understanding why I am doing it...

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise A4 and get heads up with button there are only two possible outcomes to the hand:

1. You take it down on the flop or turn.

2. You go to showdown and lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
I frequently win showdowns unimproved in this situation against loose/passive players (and it's mostly loose/passive players who are limping first in on the button). Also what's so bad about (1)?

I don't understand why this is so hard to play. You're out of position, yeah, but people who limp their button first in aren't exactly going to put you to the test postflop.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
The implied odds on this undertaking are horrible....

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that if you limped in on the button with T9, you would WANT your opponent to raise Ax?

Your complaints sound to me like a problem with your handling of this hand postflop, not with raising preflop. I don't feel intuitively that the future bets are so large as to overwhelm your preflop advantage, which appears to be substantial. I'm open to being proven wrong.

my 2 cents.
Eric