Controversy over symbols and racism .

[wacki]

There are people at 2+2 argueing that anyone using this symbol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cactuar
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9302/nazicactuar25zw.gif

is a racist.

Also, there are several people that are claiming I don't know what I'm talking about when I say the Rebel Flag isn't about slavery.

Apparently they are offended by images like this:

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/1129/tgoodboy21uc.jpg

Because that stands for slavery and is racist!

I bet all those people in dollywood are racist too!

This woman has to be evil!

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6420/dollypartonc101018091gw.jpg

Apparently the state flags of Georgia, Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida, and Alabama are also racist and was designed specifically to opress black people.

However, state legislature records from that time only talks about state rights, heritage, etc. That doesn't matter though, I guess it's still racist to some.

I wonder if this guy is a racist:

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/200/3608/640/DALTON2004SCV%20053.jpg


and this guy is a racist

http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/files/edger2.jpg

This guy is holding a sign attacking the NAACP!!! HE MUST BE RACIST!!!

(sign says "NAACP LEAVE MY MISSISSIPPI STATE FLAG ALONE")

http://www.southernmessenger.org/images/MissFlag.jpg


I bet this is some real racist booty here!

http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/files/mtn_pict_3.jpg

and here:

http://www.thesouthernamerican.org/files/black_confederates.jpg




So what do you say OOT? Is anyone that posts a swastika cactus or rebel flag racist?

[Blarg]

I'm pretty tired of hearing all the defenses of crap like this. Even OOT is better than that.

[ThaSaltCracka]

the first pic is a different version than the original. I personally don't find it offensive, but I suppose some people might. The other [censored] doesn't make sense to me.

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
Should we ban anyone that posts a swastika cactus or rebel flag?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

[thatpfunk]

i didn't even get the cactus thing until i looked for a few minutes

[tonypaladino]

Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[kipin]

I think there are bigger things to worry about.

Also, I have yet to see a massive influx of racially charged images.

[Alobar]

personally, I think there are some very stupid mods around here.

Also this is the problem when you appoint regualr posters to moderate a forum. You get narrow minded people who love to flex their power over people who used to be their "peers" and decide for everyone else what goes and what doesnt. Its just a symptom of a fevered little ego.

just to clarify tho, I think there are some really good mods around here too. But there are definately some that need to go.

[ThaSaltCracka]

we need more pics of Dolly's knockers:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/dolly.parton/scansp/parton/pvdolly3.jpg

[istewart]

Post deleted by istewart

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/acme401/DancingMonkey.gif

[[censored]]

I would not be for disallowing swastika or confederate flag avatars. Basically I think people should be allowed to have avatars that other even most find offensive and/or racist.

Basically someone using something as a avatar that I find in poor taste isn't a big concern of mine.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically someone using something as a avatar that I find in poor taste isn't a big concern of mine.

[/ QUOTE ] well plus since nearly everyone uses firefox, just right click and hide the offensive avatar.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not be for disallowing swastika or confederate flag avatars. Basically I think people should be allowed to have avatars that other even most find offensive and/or racist.

Basically someone using something as a avatar that I find in poor taste isn't a big concern of mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

especially since it isnt that hard to just block someones avatar.

Theres a goofy concept, people deciding for themselves whats offensive and whats not, and then choosing to remove it from their life.

nah, that will never work, we clearly need someone higher up to decide all this for us, my brain is already way over taxed from watching reality TV and reading people magazine all day.

[eviljeff]

[ QUOTE ]
nearly everyone uses firefox

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is probably wrong.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what they teach u at CUNY?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nearly everyone uses firefox

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is probably wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]well then that needs to be fixed!!!!!!!Hurry up and download you neanderthals.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]



especially since it isnt that hard to just block someones avatar.

Theres a goofy concept, people deciding for themselves whats offensive and whats not, and then choosing to post it on 2+2 without an NSFW warning.



[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what they teach u at CUNY?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahahahah.

[CCass]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO!!!

[eviljeff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nearly everyone uses firefox

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is probably wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]well then that needs to be fixed!!!!!!!Hurry up and download you neanderthals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Safari fo' life, yo.

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what they teach u at CUNY?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahahahah.

[/ QUOTE ]

myabe you and voltron should go back to wacking each other off

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what they teach u at CUNY?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahahahah.

[/ QUOTE ]

myabe you should avoid going Paulie Walnuts on random B&N customers

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[wacki]

We are getting off track.

The point of the thread is to discuss if that cactus hates jews and those people with flags are racist.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what they teach u at CUNY?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahahahah.

[/ QUOTE ]

myabe you should avoid going Paulie Walnuts on random B&N customers

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO

[Blarg]

I thought the point was to get all the monkeys flinging dung.

[Voltron87]

why isnt the mod forum transparent to everyone? seems like it should be.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
We are getting off track.

The point of the thread is to discuss if that cactus hates jews and those people with flags are racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its like anything else. There is nothing inherently racist about any of it. Its how its used, and how its perceived.

I'm looking to apply for a mod job to keep this forum as white as my baby's bottom. PM me wacki if you need extra help.

[Peter666]

Freedom of speech is such an outdated concept. We should all just be given avatars with retarded, elderly, black lesbians in wheelchairs.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there are several people that are claiming I don't know what I'm talking about when I say the Rebel Flag isn't about slavery.

Apparently they are offended by images like this:

[/ QUOTE ]
One of the people wacki is talking about is me.

Wacki, that flag doesn't offend me. People using the word [censored] doesn't offend me. There's not a whole lot in the world that offends me. You're completely off base here in assuming that my position ont eh flag has anything to do with personal emotiona pertaining to it.

[ QUOTE ]
state legislature records from that time only talks about state rights, heritage, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good call, since governments never lie. I used to really like your posts, but this whole flag issue has really shown me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

To rebut your certain reply, no it's not because you disagree with me. GutOnTilt has also disagreed with much of what I've said regarding the flag and we are still good friends. You have no opinion of your own. Everything you write is googled bs and it's pathetic.


Edit to note that I am VERY against bannign people for rebel flags, swastikas, ghost bumping, stupid polls and pretty much all the [censored] people get banned for each day.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
There are people at 2+2 argueing that anyone using this symbol:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cactuar
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9302/nazicactuar25zw.gif

is a racist.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's so [censored] hilarious. Both the picture and the text.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is BS. The claim that the war was about "states rights" is a bit of semantic munging to make the southern states sound slightly more noble than they actually were, perhaps as a means of mending fences between the two halves of the country.

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is BS. The claim that the war was about "states rights" is a bit of semantic munging to make the southern states sound slightly more noble than they actually were, perhaps as a means of mending fences between the two halves of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do your personal thoughts have any basis in fact?
Maybe you should read about the civil war and not rely on what you learned in 10th grade history class.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the point was to get all the monkeys flinging dung.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't want to have a dung fest. I made a mistake by emotionally charging the thread but I'm running off of very very little sleep and I'm engaged in a rather stupid debate.

Basically, the arguement is that anyone that uses that flag is a racist hiding under the cover of heritage. That includes the states of Mississippi, Florida, Arkansas, Georgia, and I would assume Dollywood.

[ThaSaltCracka]

whats the problem with the flag then?

[Blarg]

All slave owners were against slavery, dincha know?

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm looking to apply for a mod job to keep this forum as white as my baby's bottom. PM me wacki if you need extra help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets keep the mods out of this. I highly highly doubt mat will allow people to get banned for this stuff. Most of the people argueing this aren't even for banning. They just think anyone that sports a rebel flag is an inbred redneck racist.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I made a mistake by emotionally charging the thread

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, you did.


[ QUOTE ]
but I'm running off of very very little sleep and I'm engaged in a rather stupid debate.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one asked you to make this thread. You fvcked up, just admit it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is BS. The claim that the war was about "states rights" is a bit of semantic munging to make the southern states sound slightly more noble than they actually were, perhaps as a means of mending fences between the two halves of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do your personal thoughts have any basis in fact?
Maybe you should read about the civil war and not rely on what you learned in 10th grade history class.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you may have missed his point somewhat.

[RunDownHouse]

To be sure, "states' rights" is something that most people hear in high school and parrot the rest of their lives in the hopes of sounding educated.

Such a complex event as the War of Northern Aggression can't be singled down to a single factor like "slavery" or "states' rights," with the possible exception of "economics."

[ThaSaltCracka]

why don't you guys just lay out the issue right now.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is BS. The claim that the war was about "states rights" is a bit of semantic munging to make the southern states sound slightly more noble than they actually were, perhaps as a means of mending fences between the two halves of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do your personal thoughts have any basis in fact?
Maybe you should read about the civil war and not rely on what you learned in 10th grade history class.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you may have missed his point somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

salty-

do you not like tony? i am just wondering, as i like to keep up on the comings and goings of OOT. i have already learned one poster has an IQ of 156 today.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
whats the problem with the flag then?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with it. I do think it has A LOT to do with racism. For those that have never been in the south it's hard to explain. But I don't have a problem with it and I don't have a problem with swastikas.

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is BS. The claim that the war was about "states rights" is a bit of semantic munging to make the southern states sound slightly more noble than they actually were, perhaps as a means of mending fences between the two halves of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do your personal thoughts have any basis in fact?
Maybe you should read about the civil war and not rely on what you learned in 10th grade history class.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you may have missed his point somewhat.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the point then?

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit to note that I am VERY against banning people for rebel flags, swastikas, ghost bumping, stupid polls and pretty much all the [censored] people get banned for each day.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
why don't you guys just lay out the issue right now.

[/ QUOTE ]
This topic first came up for discussion in the mod forum. I'm not going to replicate a 100 post thread for lots of reasons, not the least of which is I don't need to. Mat mentioned moving it to a public forum and wacki jumped on the idea by posting it here. I have no idea why he did that. If you want someone to fill in the holes, ask him, not me.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
why isnt the mod forum transparent to everyone? seems like it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
To be sure, "states' rights" is something that most people hear in high school and parrot the rest of their lives in the hopes of sounding educated.

Such a complex event as the War of Northern Aggression can't be singled down to a single factor like "slavery" or "states' rights," with the possible exception of "economics."

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider states' rights a very broad topic. Though you are correct that the broader issue is economics.

[Eurotrash]

DER FUHRER




http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/6384/meinkampf6vc.jpg

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
and not rely on what you learned in 10th grade history class.

[/ QUOTE ]
10th grade is exactly where you learn the "states rights" revisionism.

This is akin to when people say "It's not about the money, it's the principle". It's about the money.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
but I'm running off of very very little sleep and I'm engaged in a rather stupid debate.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one asked you to make this thread. You fvcked up, just admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I would of made the thread anyway. I think anyone that is offended by any symbol without looking at it's context is misguided.

I also think that people who claim the confederate flag is about slavery need to look at those pictures, study history, and maybe even take a few road trips.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
What the confederate flag represents today has very little to do with what the Civil War was about. Why can't you or wacki understand this?

[sublime]

i think its hilarious that the mods debate issues like this

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]




I also think that people who claim the confederate flag is about slavery need to realize that Kid Rock had a black drummer.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why isnt the mod forum transparent to everyone? seems like it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll bite, why?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think it has A LOT to do with racism.

[/ QUOTE ] I think racist people have used the Confederare flag as a symbol of their hate. I also think there are a number of people that used the symbol as a part of their Southern heritage. Sadly, for some that heritage includes slavery. I personally like the flag for a number of reasons.
1. It does have a significant historical place here in America.
2. The design is kind of cool
3. It has many strong connotations associated with it.

I think the problem is some people in America for whatever reason lump the Confederate flag in with the Nazi flag, and I think that is unfair.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
i think its hilarious that the mods debate issues like this

[/ QUOTE ]

People will debate all sorts of things on internet forums. I believe that many of those who are most interested in this debate would have wanted to discuss it even if they weren't mods.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
2. The design is kind of cool

[/ QUOTE ]

OOT has proven itself to be opposed to this argument.

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
What the confederate flag represents today has very little to do with what the Civil War was about. Why can't you or wacki understand this?

[/ QUOTE ]


The confederate flag symbol, as used in state flags today doesn't represent what the civil war was about, nor does it represent slavery. I don't know the origin of each individual state flag, but I imagine it has to do with the state's history. Isn't the purpose of the flags to represent the hsotry of the state? Why would they ignore a major part of history?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
but I'm running off of very very little sleep and I'm engaged in a rather stupid debate.

[/ QUOTE ]
No one asked you to make this thread. You fvcked up, just admit it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I would of made the thread anyway. I think anyone that is offended by any symbol without looking at it's context is misguided.

I also think that people who claim the confederate flag is about slavery need to look at those pictures, study history, and maybe even take a few road trips.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not offended by anything in this thread. I'm not offended by real swastikas. I'm not offended by pictures of Jews being tortured in concentration camps. I'm not offended by nearly anything.

I don't know why you think I haven't spent enough time on google images to understand history, or why you confuse history with current events. If I find you 10 pictures of black people saying they don't like the confederate flag will that make me right? God damn you're an idiot.

I'm going to be in South Carolina next week for my fifth road trip to the south in the last four years. Can I please be considered as wordly as you are for googling pictures of the confederate flag? Give me a fvcking break.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I personally think this is BS. The claim that the war was about "states rights" is a bit of semantic munging to make the southern states sound slightly more noble than they actually were, perhaps as a means of mending fences between the two halves of the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you search amazon, there are dozens of books talking about the start of the civil war and how it was NOT caused by slavery.

Lincoln even said he had no intention of freeing the slaves at his Inaugural Address.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think its hilarious that the mods debate issues like this

[/ QUOTE ]

People will debate all sorts of things on internet forums. I believe that many of those who are most interested in this debate would have wanted to discuss it even if they weren't mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough

[tonypaladino]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]




I also think that people who claim the confederate flag is about slavery need to realize that Kid Rock had a black drummer.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think everyone should get a FYP limit. Like 3 a month.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
What the confederate flag represents today has very little to do with what the Civil War was about. Why can't you or wacki understand this?

[/ QUOTE ]who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays? Are you going to base it on some survey conducted throughtout America, or are you going to base it on a story about some dumbfuck hicks in Alabama? I don't mean this as a smart ass answer, but I think it is unfair to assume that most people thinking of racism when they see that flag. [censored], I bet you 90% of kids aged 10-18 don't even know where the flag is from(unless they are southern)

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]




I also think that people who claim the confederate flag is about slavery need to realize that Kid Rock had a black drummer.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think everyone should get a FYP limit. Like 30 a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Voltron87]

i dunno, it seems kind of goofy that you guys are off having these secret conversations, which everyone has zero . i guess it would help all the posters see why decisions are made and could explain everything, most decisions do seem to kind of come out of the dark, for example i had no idea that discussing cactus swastikas and the stars and bars was such a big deal.

i dunno, its kind of a crappy point, mostly its just that its funny that you have secret conversations in a secret forum. btw you are totally on point in this thread.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but a lot of the time racists and white supremacists use it to promote their racist/hate views. It has turned into a symbol for slavery even though it wasn't originally intended.

For example, if the stay puff marshmallow was used by white supremacists it would probably end up being offensive even without a giant swastika on its stomach...

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/7620/staypufflg8kt.jpg

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. The design is kind of cool

[/ QUOTE ]

OOT has proven itself to be opposed to this argument.

[/ QUOTE ]dude will you just [censored] off and die. You are seriously worthless.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do think it has A LOT to do with racism.

[/ QUOTE ] I think racist people have used the Confederare flag as a symbol of their hate. I also think there are a number of people that used the symbol as a part of their Southern heritage. Sadly, for some that heritage includes slavery. I personally like the flag for a number of reasons.
1. It does have a significant historical place here in America.
2. The design is kind of cool
3. It has many strong connotations associated with it.

I think the problem is some people in America for whatever reason lump the Confederate flag in with the Nazi flag, and I think that is unfair.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know and don't care whether its sybolism is "fair".

I agree it has a significant place in American history, but so does the slaughter of millions of indians and I don't think that was a good thing. I agree the design is cool. It may have many strong conotations, I think it has more negative ones.

Just to be clear, one more time, I DO NOT WANT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE BANNED, RESTRICTED, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!

[Sponger15SB]

Yup. That is my post. I'm an idiot.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

i dunno, its kind of a crappy point, mostly its just that its funny that you have secret conversations in a secret forum. btw you are totally on point in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should know that this thread was very much the exception to the rule. Most of the threads in that forum are "why is this person banned?" or "is this spam?". Largely pretty boring stuff. This one developed because someone had that cactus avatar and one of the mods thought it was a swastika. It branched off quite a bit, as you can tell.

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup. That is my post. I'm an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like how on the bottom of the image it has "Stay Puft" yet in your post you wrote what it is commonly mistaken for, "Stay Puff" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

well, all I can say is that we will just agree to disagree. Glad you are not for it being censored. Also, any time anything relating to slavery or racism is discussed in America, tensions and emotion flair. I can't think of another country in the world where people are so afraid of being called racist as America. Maybe thats a good thing.

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm looking to apply for a mod job to keep this forum as white as my baby's bottom. PM me wacki if you need extra help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets keep the mods out of this. I highly highly doubt mat will allow people to get banned for this stuff. Most of the people argueing this aren't even for banning. They just think anyone that sports a rebel flag is an inbred redneck racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

halfway through this thread wacki sure is doing his damnest to get this thing started into a big race fight. every time it veers off course youre right there trying to fan the flames and instigate an argument. ill keep reading and see if you were successful.

bwana

[wacki]

OK guys, just to clarify. PLEASE DROP THE WHOLE MOD THING. Mat isn't going to allow anyone to get banned over a flag.

This is a discussion if symbols like the confederate flag are symbols of racism and anyone that uses it is symbolizing racism. Many are claiming just that. A lot of this debate happened over IRC.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays?

[/ QUOTE ]
People that have first hand experience with those that sport it?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
well, all I can say is that we will just agree to disagree. Glad you are not for it being censored. Also, any time anything relating to slavery or racism is discussed in America, tensions and emotion flair. I can't think of another country in the world where people are so afraid of being called racist as America. Maybe thats a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you know a lot about the racism issues in sweden i presume?

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yup. That is my post. I'm an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like how on the bottom of the image it has "Stay Puft" yet in your post you wrote what it is commonly mistaken for, "Stay Puff" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

also isn't it heil hitler?

[Sponger15SB]

Naw, I knew it was stay puft, but i just mistyped cause the f and t buttons are so close together.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays?

[/ QUOTE ]
People that have first hand experience with those that sport it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to dollywood and get a bigger sample set.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
also isn't it heil hitler?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the stay pufft marshmallo german?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays?

[/ QUOTE ]
People that have first hand experience with those that sport it?

[/ QUOTE ]

i will say this. if i see anyone with that stupid flag, i assume they are idiots. then again, i assume most people are idiots.

I plead ignorance on the rebel flag.

My feeling is that the tone of the cactus image only contributes to the general desensitization of the masses where the events of WWII are involved. I have no designs on mod status and I'm all for freedom of speech, but if someone gave me that responsibility, I'd at least use it to make sure these forums didn't contribute to this kind of ignorance. I recognize that its a joke, but its walking a blurred line.

That said, I have to think some people are offended by some of the NSFW pics on this site, and once you start getting into censorship, a major cleanup/overhaul may be required. Even then, you won't keep all the people happy all the time. Tough call.

Gary

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays?

[/ QUOTE ]
People that have first hand experience with those that sport it?

[/ QUOTE ]ok, but I can then come back and tell you that I have met some very nice people from SC that display their Confederate flag as a symbol of Southern pride. This of course could be an SC thing. Either way, as I said, the connotation is different from person to person. You seem to be caught up in the negative connotation, and refuse to acknowledge those that hold the flag in a positive way.

Me personally, I can see both sides.

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yup. That is my post. I'm an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like how on the bottom of the image it has "Stay Puft" yet in your post you wrote what it is commonly mistaken for, "Stay Puff" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

also isn't it heil hitler?

[/ QUOTE ]


haha, I think so, but I was going to let that slide

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

This is a discussion if symbols like the confederate flag are symbols of racism and anyone that uses it is symbolizing racism

[/ QUOTE ]
At my high school there were desks int eh library set up in blcoks of four. If you looked at them from above the walls made the shape of a swastika. I don't think the designers fo those desks were racist.

You made a pretty blanket statement there, did you really expect it to hold up?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays?

[/ QUOTE ]
People that have first hand experience with those that sport it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Go to dollywood and get a bigger sample set.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given your recent stupidity I can't even give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are joking.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Dollywood man, go see the [censored] man, the [censored] [censored] man!

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
who can really say what the flag truely means nowadays?

[/ QUOTE ]
People that have first hand experience with those that sport it?

[/ QUOTE ]ok, but I can then come back and tell you that I have met some very nice people from SC that display their Confederate flag as a symbol of Southern pride. This of course could be an SC thing. Either way, as I said, the connotation is different from person to person. You seem to be caught up in the negative connotation, and refuse to acknowledge those that hold the flag in a positive way.

Me personally, I can see both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not refusing to see anything. I'm tryign to aggregate it. If I started signing valentine's cards with "[swastika] Evan" because I was using it as a symbol of love, would that make it not a symbol of Naziism?

[ThaSaltCracka]

unfortunately, for people with no understanding of the history of that symbol, they would think that. However, I don't see how this proves or supports your point.

edit: wait, nevermind. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think the designers were racist.



[/ QUOTE ]

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/5826/heinrichhimmler8po.jpg

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
unfortunately, for people with no understanding of the history of that symbol, they would think that. However, I don't see how this proves or supports your point.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesnt prove my point. I was just trying to illustrate that because you know 3 or 5 or 50 peopel that use the flag is an awesome way doesn't mean that many more don't use it in a hateful way.

I can't prove that it's more often used as a symbol of hate than non-hateful pride. I'm just telling you that that's my opinion based on empirical evidence.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just telling you that that's my opinion based on empirical evidence.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah I sorta understood that about 20 posts ago or so.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Go to dollywood and get a bigger sample set.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given your recent stupidity I can't even give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are joking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, I'm not. From your previous comment I assume you meant everyone that sports the stars and bars = racist. Some of your previous arguements have been equally extreme by equating it (in the absolute sense) to incest. Both assumptions are dumber than anything I've done in this thread IMO. It's all about context, context, CONTEXT!!!!!

Your question on IRC about the swastika was also a poor one. You gave me no context. "is the swastika a hate symbol? 1 word only wacki!!! yes or no!". At least you agree on a native american indian it isn't.

I've never been to dollywood but i've met tons that do go. To them that flag is a cultural icon. Hell even blacks wear it at dollywood. So some it's political, to others it's simply a symbol of a way of life. (i.e. country music) It's a petty cause, but a harmless one none the less.

There are many other legit reasons to sport this flag.

To claim they are racist is just wrong.

nevermind, not my argument

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just telling you that that's my opinion based on empirical evidence.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah I sorta understood that about 20 posts ago or so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, sorry but that's all I can offer, just like you. In this case I think my experience is more accurate than yours.

[TheRover]

Holy [censored] did you just called this arguement

[ QUOTE ]
Go to dollywood and get a bigger sample set.

[/ QUOTE ]

stupid and then follow it up with something this goddamn dumb?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not refusing to see anything. I'm tryign to aggregate it. If I started signing valentine's cards with "[swastika] Evan" because I was using it as a symbol of love, would that make it not a symbol of Naziism?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm just telling you that that's my opinion based on empirical evidence.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah I sorta understood that about 20 posts ago or so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, sorry but that's all I can offer, just like you. In this case I think my experience is more accurate than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't see why your experience is any more accurate than mine, nor do I understand why you are arguing a point with me which I have acknowledged is true? Is there some sort of pride associated with experiencing people with "da flag"?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Your question on IRC about the swastika was also a poor one. You gave me no context. "is the swastika a hate symbol? 1 word only wacki!!! yes or no!". At least you agree on a native american indian it isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wacki, when's the last time you saw an American Indian sporting the swastika? When's the last time you saw a swastika and thought, "Man, I need to go rent Pocahontas!"


[ QUOTE ]

There are many other legit reasons to sport this flag.

To claim they are racist is just wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
SOrry I couldn't come up with one as accurate as "supporting country music".

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not refusing to see anything. I'm tryign to aggregate it. If I started signing valentine's cards with "[swastika] Evan" because I was using it as a symbol of love, would that make it not a symbol of Naziism?

[/ QUOTE ]

In Korea, this would be fine. In deutschland, this would be bad.

Context, Context, CONTEXT!!!!!

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Holy [censored] did you just called this arguement

[ QUOTE ]
Go to dollywood and get a bigger sample set.

[/ QUOTE ]

stupid and then follow it up with something this goddamn dumb?

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not refusing to see anything. I'm tryign to aggregate it. If I started signing valentine's cards with "[swastika] Evan" because I was using it as a symbol of love, would that make it not a symbol of Naziism?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why this is dumb? I don't get it and neither do a couple people I've asked.

[sublime]

I don't get it and neither do a couple people I've asked.

did you ask them in ther MOD FORUM?????


mwahaahahahahahaaaa http://www.g21.net/2000grax/dracula11.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]

Wacki, when's the last time you saw an American Indian sporting the swastika?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't mean to be a nit, but I do believe I saw either an Indian or some Indian artifact, either in person or on TV with a swastika on their clothes/art. I do not recall specifics, but I think this sample size is suffice.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not refusing to see anything. I'm tryign to aggregate it. If I started signing valentine's cards with "[swastika] Evan" because I was using it as a symbol of love, would that make it not a symbol of Naziism?

[/ QUOTE ]

In Korea, this would be fine. In deutschland, this would be bad.

Context, Context, CONTEXT!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
We're in America. I don't think Korean context is really relevant. In some places it might be okay for me to shoot you for for disagreing with me, I don't need you to point out that it's not okay in this context since we're not in wherever.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Wacki, when's the last time you saw an American Indian sporting the swastika?

[/ QUOTE ] I don't mean to be a nit, but I do believe I saw either an Indian or some Indian artifact, either in person or on TV with a swastika on their clothes/art. I do not recall specifics, but I think this sample size is suffice.

[/ QUOTE ]
My question was meant to be time-based, not instance-based. I was the one that pointed out in irc that it was originally an american indian symbol. My point is that it has taken on a different meaning in our culture.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that it has taken on a different meaning in our culture.

[/ QUOTE ] [censored], I think it has a very different meaning for any culture that has had moving pictures since the 1930's. So I disagree with wacki here, atleast in regards to the swastika.

[TheRover]

You're using something totally unrealistic and ridiculous to argue against tsc's reasonable comments and right after mocking wacki's ridiculous statement. It just bugged me.

Or I'm reading it wrong.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that it has taken on a different meaning in our culture.

[/ QUOTE ] [censored], I think it has a very different meaning for any culture that has had moving pictures since the 1930's. So I disagree with wacki here, atleast in regards to the swastika.

[/ QUOTE ]
Challah!

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

Wacki, when's the last time you saw an American Indian sporting the swastika?

[/ QUOTE ]

The last time I was on an Indian reservation for purposes other than gamboling..ing... 2 years ago.

Still, arguement is irrelevant.

I think the major problem here is that the flag means different things for people on different sides of the country.

The solution? "When in Rome...."

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this what they teach u at CUNY?

[/ QUOTE ]


what....did u get a one sided northern education in how to be a moron?

the flag did not stand for slavery...and the war was fought for many reasons...that flag was used in a war....it doesnt mean it has anything to do with race...i dont have time to go into detail on this right now

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
You're using something totally unrealistic and ridiculous to argue against tsc's reasonable comments and right after mocking wacki's ridiculous statement. It just bugged me.

Or I'm reading it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
My post was meant to be borderline absurd. I was trying to illustrate that a small sample of people with a particular definition of something doesn't make that definition true. While it may not have been the most coherent example, I think it got the point across.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
The solution? "When in Rome....just use a bundle of sticks instead"

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]

WHITE POWER

[/ QUOTE ]

fypeachy

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I was trying to illustrate that a small sample of people with a particular definition of something doesn't make that definition true.

[/ QUOTE ] this works both ways though.

Anyways, I am off to play some b-ball, have fun.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
You're using something totally unrealistic and ridiculous to argue against tsc's reasonable comments and right after mocking wacki's ridiculous statement. It just bugged me.

Or I'm reading it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain to me how basing a sample set off of 10,000 dollywood regulars is more absurd than basing it of 8 skinheads you met in an alley.

Seriously my comment was a bit silly but it was nowhere near as absurd as some of the claims my opponents have made.

Also, I've made plenty of historical arguements in the past. They were ignored because "the symbol has evolved to something else which is hate". I see no reason why I can't counter that with using the country culture. BTW, my dollywood comment wasn't actually about dollywood. It was about the people who visited dollywood. There is a HUGE difference.

You better explain to my why my comment is more ridiculous than an 8 skinhead sample set.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

WHITE POWER

[/ QUOTE ]

fypeachy

[/ QUOTE ]


The north did just as much injustice in regards to slaves of the NORTH and thier abuse of immigrants...try actually learning history sometime...i dont see mass slave graves in the south like there are in NY full of thousands of bodies. How can people assume we are the racist ones? Everyone in America used slaves and it had been a practice since the beginning of time....these were NOT the primary reasons for our war

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
whats the problem with the flag then?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with it. I do think it has A LOT to do with racism. For those that have never been in the south it's hard to explain. But I don't have a problem with it and I don't have a problem with swastikas.

[/ QUOTE ]


uve got to be kidding me...people of ALL races fly that flag here...to the non retarded it stands for southern heritage and tradition. A very small percent of people fly that flag to strictly be RACIST. And u driving through the south doesnt make u an expert on our way of life here


To me flying the American flag is just as "racist" as flying the confederate flag

[istewart]

PM me re: tonight's lynching, peachy. Thanks.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]


Just to be clear, one more time, I DO NOT WANT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE BANNED, RESTRICTED, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. Not in OOT, but to have any part of a flag flying over any state capital with a confederate flag design is completely unacceptible. Not only for what that flag, rightly or wrongly, symbolizes to millions of Americans, but also because THEY LOST THE WAR. If you lose the war, you do not get to continue flying your colors. But even ignoring that, it should be pretty obviously wrong for any public institution to have any part of that flag.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously my comment was a bit silly but it was nowhere near as absurd as some of the claims my opponents have made.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That my point, sort of.
[ QUOTE ]

You better explain to my why my comment is more ridiculous than an 8 skinhead sample set.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't, but using Dollywood as an example just sounds ridiculous and goofy as hell and takes away from your arguement imo. Just come up with a better example and way of phrasing it.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]


There are many other legit reasons to sport this flag.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, there really aren't. And I'm not getting into your semantical argument about whether or not the users of the flag are racist. I'm simply talking about whether or not use of the flag is ok. To suggest that there are "many legit reasons" to publicly use the confederate flag is pretty ridiculous.

[kipin]

This thread is quite amusing.

I particularly like sublimes "so you know a lot about the racism issues in sweden i presume?" line and the Sponger Nazi fluff monster.

Voltron's fypeachy was also classic.

My rating: five stars

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

What the confederate flag represents today has very little to do with what the Civil War was about.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically correct.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
And u driving through the south doesnt make u an expert on our way of life here

[/ QUOTE ]
I've spent many weeks in the south, much more than just driving through. Still, I wouldn never claim to be an expert on Southern culture. I never have and never will.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Just to be clear, one more time, I DO NOT WANT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE BANNED, RESTRICTED, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. Not in OOT, but to have any part of a flag flying over any state capital with a confederate flag design is completely unacceptible. Not only for what that flag, rightly or wrongly, symbolizes to millions of Americans, but also because THEY LOST THE WAR. If you lose the war, you do not get to continue flying your colors. But even ignoring that, it should be pretty obviously wrong for any public institution to have any part of that flag.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clark, just to be clear, I was only talking about this forum. I agree that it shouldn't be flown in those settings for the same reasons you state. I think you'll agree that it shouldn't be restricted on this forum.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And u driving through the south doesnt make u an expert on our way of life here

[/ QUOTE ]
I've spent many weeks in the south, much more than just driving through. Still, I wouldn never claim to be an expert on Southern culture. I never have and never will.

[/ QUOTE ]

You driving through/staying a short time and seeing things here and making assumtions about our culture/way of life based on your education and what u have been told is about the worst thing u can do. Sure everyone has thier own thoughts...but u shouldnt be closed minded to the facts that others are trying to share about the issue.



That flag means alot to everyone of the south...and will never be gotten rid of in any shape or form. It stands for alot more than most of you will ever realize or ever research and places pride in the hearts of most southerns....that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.


I have a good deal of native american in me as well as german - I did not exist in those times and do not bring those issues into the present with me on making decisions on how i feel about poeple of this world - I do have family that is very true to thier heritage on both sides and I respect each in thier culture and heritage. I am southern...and I am proud of what that means and what my family has accomplished here over the last 200 years. I don't blame anyone of any race for what happened to my ancestors....and no symbol that a few use for hate will ever change that.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll agree that it shouldn't be restricted on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's up to the site owners. I don't even recall ever seeing one. I'm obviously talking about a very specific issue tangential to this thread.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[TheRover]

Anyone,

isn't this stuff for the politics forum, anyway?

[Stuey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are getting off track.

The point of the thread is to discuss if that cactus hates jews and those people with flags are racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its like anything else. There is nothing inherently racist about any of it. Its how its used, and how its perceived.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only part of this thread that seemed important to me and I have read the whole mess twice.

Clearly some people will view these and other symbols as being racist. Now we just need to decide if it is enough people or enough of the important people or enough of the people with the power to do something about it that gets to have things their way.

I'm not saying this would be the right thing to do but it is the most likely.

[peachy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]


like i said...the advantages and luck that made this result possible will not change how southerns feel nor will it change our traditions

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
You driving through/staying a short time and seeing things here and making assumtions about our culture/way of life based on your education and what u have been told is about the worst thing u can do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to file this one under W for What The [censored]. Why is forming opinions from first hand experience the worst thing I can do? Because they're different from yours?


[ QUOTE ]
Sure everyone has thier own thoughts...but u shouldnt be closed minded to the facts that others are trying to share about the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]
What have I been close-minded about?


[ QUOTE ]
That flag means alot to everyone of the south

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope.


[ QUOTE ]
...and will never be gotten rid of in any shape or form.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty bold claim.


[ QUOTE ]
It stands for alot more than most of you will ever realize or ever research and places pride in the hearts of most southerns....that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]
This one made me laugh.

[B Dids]

08:32] <B_Dids> best thing about the flag thread so far
[08:32] <B_Dids> Voltron totally misusing the word "transparent"

Also-

From a discussion I had yesterday with Evan and Peachy.

The Confederate Flag has a MUCH different context depending on where it's flown. I might not bat an eye at it in GA, but in Washington State, somebody flying that flag is likely to be making a statement, or at least allowing people to make an assumption of their views on race that won't be very charitable.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just want to say that this is one of the best quotes I've ever seen. I've always thought highly of you, but this puts you in a whole new class. Well done, buddy.

Edit to say that if someone puts this on a bumper sticker I'll buy at least a dozen, and I don't even own a car.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
like i said...the advantages and luck that made this result possible will not change how southerns feel nor will it change our traditions

[/ QUOTE ]

btw peachy, you are logged into aim if you didnt notice...

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]


like i said...the advantages and luck that made this result possible will not change how southerns feel nor will it change our traditions

[/ QUOTE ]

so you guys are adamant on remaining stupid inbreds?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]


like i said...the advantages and luck that made this result possible will not change how southerns feel nor will it change our traditions

[/ QUOTE ]

You can go to the sample size argument all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the south got totally pwn3d.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Clarkmeister/untitled.jpg

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]


like i said...the advantages and luck that made this result possible will not change how southerns feel nor will it change our traditions

[/ QUOTE ]
Can I still submit this for POTY?

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just want to say that this is one of the best quotes I've ever seen. I've always thought highly of you, but this puts you in a whole new class. Well done, buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The union army lost 360,000 men which was 50% more than the confederate army. They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had twice as many men but still took massive beatings in many battles. Yes, they did win, but it wasn't a shut out by any means.

I thought this was a pretty lousy quote.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that u can never take away - not even with a victory in a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

The North not only won, they covered the spread.

[/ QUOTE ]


like i said...the advantages and luck that made this result possible will not change how southerns feel nor will it change our traditions

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you had to change one of 'em. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is exactly how they didn't, because it made the south a huge underdog.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is exactly how they didn't, because it made the south a huge underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they played the game again, not many would be betting on the south.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Clarkmeister/untitled.jpg

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Just to be clear, one more time, I DO NOT WANT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE BANNED, RESTRICTED, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. Not in OOT, but to have any part of a flag flying over any state capital with a confederate flag design is completely unacceptible. Not only for what that flag, rightly or wrongly, symbolizes to millions of Americans, but also because THEY LOST THE WAR. If you lose the war, you do not get to continue flying your colors. But even ignoring that, it should be pretty obviously wrong for any public institution to have any part of that flag.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clark, just to be clear, I was only talking about this forum. I agree that it shouldn't be flown in those settings for the same reasons you state. I think you'll agree that it shouldn't be restricted on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im in 100% agreement with all of this. clark and evan's.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

"Covered the spread" refers to the final score and means the north should of won far quicker than predicted (First battle of Manassas). This did not happen. Instead the war spent 4 years in overtime and the north suffered far more casualties than the south.

What you showed up with is irrelevant.

Why am I entertaining this arguement????

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

"Covered the spread" refers to the final score and means the north should of won far quicker than predicted (First battle of Manassas). This did not happen. Instead the war spent 4 years in overtime and the north suffered far more casualties than the south.

What you showed up with is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

wacki-

after the first 100 posts in the thread i didnt think you could say any more stupid crap, but apparently i was wrong.

wow.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"Covered the spread" refers to the final score and means the north should of won far quicker than predicted (First battle of Manassas). This did not happen. Instead the war spent 4 years in overtime and the north suffered far more casualties than the south.

What you showed up with is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

wacki-

after the first 100 posts in the thread i didnt think you could say any more stupid crap, but apparently i was wrong.

wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me what facts in this post are wrong.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Just to be clear, one more time, I DO NOT WANT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG TO BE BANNED, RESTRICTED, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. Not in OOT, but to have any part of a flag flying over any state capital with a confederate flag design is completely unacceptible. Not only for what that flag, rightly or wrongly, symbolizes to millions of Americans, but also because THEY LOST THE WAR. If you lose the war, you do not get to continue flying your colors. But even ignoring that, it should be pretty obviously wrong for any public institution to have any part of that flag.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clark, just to be clear, I was only talking about this forum. I agree that it shouldn't be flown in those settings for the same reasons you state. I think you'll agree that it shouldn't be restricted on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im in 100% agreement with all of this. clark and evan's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this too. However, my post was about racism and symbols in context. We have been drastically sidetracked.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
We have been drastically sidetracked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just like to post this beautiful picture of Atlanta one more time and suggest the the point of this thread is now to heckle losers from the south *cough* <font color="white"> peachy </font> *cough* who cling to the war.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Clarkmeister/untitled.jpg

[YourFoxyGrandma]

In response to the OP and in an effort to "get back on track"...

First of all, the cactaur image is hilarious. I think it clearly exists for entertainment purposes and I can't imagine too many people getting bent out of shape about it. This doesn't really have anything to do with my arguement; I just think it's not the best of examples.

The confederate flag, on the other hand, is a different story. The confederate flag is alot like a popped collar. There's nothing about a popped collar that has anything to do with being a tool. However, lots of people that happen to be gigantic tools pop their collars cause they think it looks sweet or whatever; I can't really say. My dad pops his collar in the summer months when he goes outside so his neck doesn't get sunburned. Do people think he's a tool? I don't know; probably not because he's an old guy, but say that I popped my collar to keep my neck from getting sunburned. Would people look at me and be like, "omg, tool."? Yes. Yes, they would.

Anyway, I think my point is completely lost at this point, but what I'm trying to say is that people may do something for a certain reason, but it's up to everyone else to figure out what that reason is. If someone flies the confederate flag to display their southern pride and someone else immediately interprets that as a racist action, that's simply a miscommunication as a result of both parties' differing past experiences in dealing with the confederate flag. It's all about context and I think everyone can agree on this.

*Edited because I'm anal about wording.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone flies the confederate flag to display their southern pride and someone else immediately interprets that as a racist action, that's simply a miscommunication.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally I'm not alone


[ QUOTE ]
It's all about context and I think everyone can agree on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be amazed.

[ThaSaltCracka]

meh, this thread went downhill after I left.

[thatpfunk]

Thank god Clark came into this thread to back up Evan with some common [censored] sense.

The South lost, get over it.

Also, why the hell are you supposed to be proud of something that attempted to tear the nation apart? Are you really that [censored] stupid to have pride in a bunch of rebels that attempted to destroy the US? Would this have been a good thing? Do you not like the country you're living in? Can you imagine what would have happened if southerners had won? We'd probably all be speaking Mexican or Canadian by now.

And all these people are the same "patriots" nowadays who claim the Blue staters are the unpatriotic assholes.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Bro, you had me at Thank God for Clark....


[ QUOTE ]
Also, why the hell are you supposed to be proud of something that attempted to tear the nation apart? Are you really that [censored] stupid to have pride in a bunch of rebels that attempted to destroy the US? Would this have been a good thing? Do you not like the country you're living in? Can you imagine what would have happened if southerners had won? We'd probably all be speaking Mexican or Canadian by now.

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't seriously believe all of this, right? Without Rebels, we would all be [censored] British or French, and you can count that one.

[thatpfunk]

i don't even know what to say, your post is that far off.

The rebels of the south tried to tear apart the US. They did not. Why should we be proud of people who tried to secede from the nation? Do you not like the country TSC?

If California attempted to scede from the nation and lost would it be acceptable for us to proudly fly a flag representing our hair-brained idea? [censored] no.

Do I wish the South would dissapear? Yes, yes I do.

[sublime]

Do I wish the South would dissapear? Yes, yes I do.

lets not get crazy now! there are some nice beaches down there.

[thatpfunk]

sublime,
i live here: http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/4350/mbsouth9ae.jpg
When this doesn't suit my fancy, theres always Mexico.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
sublime,
i live here: http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/4350/mbsouth9ae.jpg
When this doesn't suit my fancy, theres always Mexico.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif SoCal. That is all. When are you moving here sublime?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i dunno, its kind of a crappy point, mostly its just that its funny that you have secret conversations in a secret forum. btw you are totally on point in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should know that this thread was very much the exception to the rule. Most of the threads in that forum are "why is this person banned?" or "is this spam?". Largely pretty boring stuff. This one developed because someone had that cactus avatar and one of the mods thought it was a swastika. It branched off quite a bit , as you can tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

understatement of the effing century!

Barron

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is exactly how they didn't, because it made the south a huge underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they played the game again, not many would be betting on the south.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Clarkmeister/untitled.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]
It feels good knowing that Clark's got my back while I'm resting up for my finals. Challah at ya boy!

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
The rebels of the south tried to tear apart the US. They did not. Why should we be proud of people who tried to secede from the nation? Do you not like the country TSC?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well if you live in CA, you can thank the Northern aggressors for being able to be arrested for marijuana-related Federal laws in spite of state laws to the contrary.

[thatpfunk]

Say nope to dope.

(and I will vehemently argue that less than 5% of the Confederate Flag displayers are doing so as a statement about the complicated issue of States rights vs the Federal Government.)

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there are several people that are claiming I don't know what I'm talking about when I say the Rebel Flag isn't about slavery.


[/ QUOTE ]

these people are all correct. the fact that the flag is quite old matters much less than what it NOW stands for. the flag has become much more popular to display/use since the Civil Rights movement.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, there are several people that are claiming I don't know what I'm talking about when I say the Rebel Flag isn't about slavery.


[/ QUOTE ]

these people are all correct. the fact that the flag is quite old matters much less than what it NOW stands for. the flag has become much more popular to display/use since the Civil Rights movement.

[/ QUOTE ]
Challah!

I'd also like to change my stance from "wacki doesn't know what he's talking about" to "wacki doesn't know what google's talking about".

[Shajen]

[ QUOTE ]
Do I wish the South would dissapear? Yes, yes I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF did "the South" ever do to you? "The South" gave you sweet tea, tobacco, Chick-fil-A, Southern Belles and Nascar.

(I mostly kid about the Nascar)

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do I wish the South would dissapear? Yes, yes I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF did "the South" ever do to you? "The South" gave you sweet tea, tobacco, Chick-fil-A, Southern Belles and Nascar.

(I mostly kid about the Nascar)

[/ QUOTE ]
Sweet tea is pretty horrible.

[thatpfunk]

Shajen,
I can live, quite happily, without anything you mentioned (most of which I do live without).

As for what has the South done to me? My response would belong in politics, but I am sure you can figure out how a California liberal might answer.

For an oot response, the South has unfortunately produced Jeff Foxworthy, the Blue Collar Comedy Tour, GitRdone, Nascar, the KKK, Cracker Barrel, Get Crunked Rap music, Lil Jon, a celebration of ignorance, the worst socio-economic disparity in the country, Britney Spears, people who watch Everyone Loves Raymond, overalls, an acceptance of intelligent design as a viable scientific theory, Master P, pimp cups, platinum teeth, higher healthcare costs due to obesity, and Toby Keith.

I can come up with a lot more, this is just off the top of my head.

[Evan]

What's the problem with Cracker Barrel? I've only eaten there once but it was pretty good.

[thatpfunk]

I've only eaten there once as well. It was after 24 hrs of driving and I hated the place out of spite I think (I doubt I would have enjoyed any breakfast at that point).

I was also little pertrubed by the fact that in front of the entrance there was large sign telling the patrons that they didn't discriminate due to race or creed. Really? No [censored], because I didn't think you were allowed to, even if you wanted. But thanks for letting me know.

(so I guess you can strike CB off my list, circumstances being what they were)

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I was also little pertrubed by the fact that in front of the entrance there was large sign telling the patrons that they didn't discriminate due to race or creed. Really? No [censored], because I didn't think you were allowed to, even if you wanted. But thanks for letting me know.

[/ QUOTE ]
People probably get confused by the Confederate flags.

[thatpfunk]

i can't even think of a witty response- you're good /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Shajen]

[ QUOTE ]

Sweet tea is pretty horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make the baby Elvis cry.

[Shajen]

[ QUOTE ]
Shajen,
I can live, quite happily, without anything you mentioned (most of which I do live without).

As for what has the South done to me? My response would belong in politics, but I am sure you can figure out how a California liberal might answer.

For an oot response, the South has unfortunately produced Jeff Foxworthy, the Blue Collar Comedy Tour, GitRdone, Nascar, the KKK, Cracker Barrel, Get Crunked Rap music, Lil Jon, a celebration of ignorance, the worst socio-economic disparity in the country, Britney Spears, people who watch Everyone Loves Raymond, overalls, an acceptance of intelligent design as a viable scientific theory, Master P, pimp cups, platinum teeth, higher healthcare costs due to obesity, and Toby Keith.

I can come up with a lot more, this is just off the top of my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there are some [censored] up people down this way, I ain't gonna lie.

There are also some good people down here. I'm not a fan of judging an entire region based solely on the characteristics of a smallish group of morons.

Regarding the flag and the symbol:

I don't give a damn what other people do, as long as it doesn't effect me or my way of life. What they do on their own time/dime is their business. (Did I get the thread back on track?)

[thatpfunk]

Shajen,
You have to realize I'm not being completely serious. While those are mostly pieces of pop culture I dislike, they provide me with a great source of humor.

There are some really, really nice people in the South. I actually had a conversation with a police officer without having him be condescending or an [censored] (pretty shocking for me). The South has also produced some damn fine music, good booze, and some fun times. I imagine going to college in the South would be a fun experience, although living there my whole life (or any period of real life since college doesn't actually count) would be next to impossible for me.

Every area has good people and [censored] people.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]


As for what has the South done to me? My response would belong in politics, but I am sure you can figure out how a California liberal might answer.

For an oot response, the South has unfortunately produced Jeff Foxworthy, the Blue Collar Comedy Tour, GitRdone, Nascar, the KKK, Cracker Barrel, Get Crunked Rap music, Lil Jon, a celebration of ignorance, the worst socio-economic disparity in the country, Britney Spears, people who watch Everyone Loves Raymond, overalls, an acceptance of intelligent design as a viable scientific theory, Master P, pimp cups, platinum teeth, higher healthcare costs due to obesity, and Toby Keith.

I can come up with a lot more, this is just off the top of my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad to see personal hate trumps freedom of speech. A true modern day liberal!

[thatpfunk]

What the [censored] are you talking about? Freedom of speech?

Sorry wacki, but you absolutely suck in this thread.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry wacki, but you absolutely suck in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
Challah!

[Shajen]

pfunk,

I need to drink more coffee.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
If California attempted to scede from the nation and lost would it be acceptable for us to proudly fly a flag representing our hair-brained idea? [censored] no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh... a little history lesson.

California is completely different than the of South of 1864. Jefferson Davis never went to trial for treason. The reason why is because the north was afraid what would happen in the courtrooms.

Not that boneheaded.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Why should we be proud of people who tried to secede from the nation?

[/ QUOTE ] It is not a matter of us being proud, it is a matter of those Southerners being proud. In all honesty, what the Southern states tried to do, was pretty damn American.

Anyways, pfunk, I don't understand the hyperbole and bombastic speech from you in this thread /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[SL__72]

Actually pimp cups came from Cali, as did the type of rap that eventually evolved into "crunk." You are the reason the democratic party can't win a [censored] election. Could you please refrain from talking politics until at least after the next presidential election.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem was that the Union soldiers sucked compared to the Rebels. Thus a four-year, bloody war.

The South (and appalachia in particular) still provides the U.S. its best soldiers to this day. Tough, skilled with firearms, know how to fight, can be pretty [censored] mean.

[Jack of Arcades]

I really don't know how to say what I'm about to say, but I think it needs to be said and I'll just write and not think about it too much.

I've lived in the south almost all of my life, mostly in south-central Louisiana where some people know there's a significant black population.

Many people get the wrong idea about the South. There aren't many overt racists here - in fact, what's misconstrued as racism is some combination of cultural insensitivity and classism. I guess that's kind've like saying the blacks that act white are okay, but there's really just one subset of people that are really annoying/hated around here, and those are the [censored]. I'm sure you can figure out the censored word, but it starts with an N. Think Chris Rock's bit about [censored] and black people. Of course what you consider a [censored] is really a gradient scale that roughly correlates with how old you are.

For example: my grandmother thinks all black people are [censored]. She's also in her 80s and senile.

Example 2: My mother has a condescending view of most blacks but she hangs out with them, does business with them, etc. She really only has a problem with the ones that are poor. It's a bit of subtle racism that I don't know if it's better or worse than the overt type, you know?

Example 3: Me, I guess. I hate stupid people. This is comprised of a lot of blacks. I think it's important to point out that my generation also hates the stupid white people, too.

The people that are displaying the confederate flag, I think, fall mostly into example 2. It's not an out-and-out racism but I think most people who display it do it with the intent of a bit of a riling up and they hide behind the ideas of states rights and heritage. Obviously it isn't all of them I've known some outright racists and some people that actually DO believe about heritage, etc. But I do wonder why people need to celebrate such a heritage...

Meh. I dunno.

[ChipWrecked]

Barry Bonds reply when asked if he'd like to be traded to Boston: Too many racists there.

[ThaSaltCracka]

interesting post...

[thatpfunk]

Wacki,
What the [censored] are you talking about when you said freedom of speech?

And how is the federal govt imposing its will over the voters of CA different? States rights, isn't that what this is all about?

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone flies the confederate flag to display their southern pride and someone else immediately interprets that as a racist action, that's simply a miscommunication as a result of both parties' differing past experiences in dealing with the confederate flag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, let's call it a miscommunication. But given the immense baggage associated with the Confederate flag, it is a miscommunication that one should be likely to expect if you're trying to show off your "southern pride."

[ QUOTE ]
It's all about context and I think everyone can agree on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

What isn't? I think the point that many people have is that there is a huge overwhelming context behind symbols such as the swastika or the Confederate flag that generally overpowers whatever your more small-scale context is.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem was that the Union soldiers sucked compared to the Rebels. Thus a four-year, bloody war.

The South (and appalachia in particular) still provides the U.S. its best soldiers to this day. Tough, skilled with firearms, know how to fight, can be pretty [censored] mean.

[/ QUOTE ]
The south got owned and they had the better army, okay. I'm not arguing that the Northern soldiers were better or strogner or tougher or anything, who the [censored] cares? That the south was better at war and still lost is only a further testment to their pwnedness imo.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think we are moving into politics territory.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
Barry Bonds reply when asked if he'd like to be traded to Boston: Too many racists there.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[Jack of Arcades]

I've observed the racism in southern california and I really think it's sorta similar, keep in mind I might be way off because I was only there two years, but there were a lot of parallels between blacks and mexicans in santa barbara.

[SL__72]

Can someone explain how hating the South is any different then hating black people? If you are going to start picking out huge groups of people to hate, at least admit that you are a bigot

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem was that the Union soldiers sucked compared to the Rebels. Thus a four-year, bloody war.

The South (and appalachia in particular) still provides the U.S. its best soldiers to this day. Tough, skilled with firearms, know how to fight, can be pretty [censored] mean.

[/ QUOTE ]
The south got owned and they had the better army, okay. I'm not arguing that the Northern soldiers were better or strogner or tougher or anything, who the [censored] cares? That the south was better at war and still lost is only a further testment to their pwnedness imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

One way of looking at it.

Another way is that a starved, ragged, ill-equipped, outnumbered army forced the manufacturing center of the world into four overtimes.

Aside: who's the mod who thinks this cactus thing is a swastika? That's [censored] hilarious.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Example 2: My mother has a condescending view of most blacks but she hangs out with them, does business with them, etc. She really only has a problem with the ones that are poor. It's a bit of subtle racism that I don't know if it's better or worse than the overt type, you know?

[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't seem all that subtle to me.

[CCass]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank god Clark came into this thread to back up Evan with some common [censored] sense.

The South lost, get over it.

Also, why the hell are you supposed to be proud of something that attempted to tear the nation apart? Are you really that [censored] stupid to have pride in a bunch of rebels that attempted to destroy the US? Would this have been a good thing? Do you not like the country you're living in? Can you imagine what would have happened if southerners had won? We'd probably all be speaking Mexican or Canadian by now.

And all these people are the same "patriots" nowadays who claim the Blue staters are the unpatriotic assholes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stayed out of this discussion as long as possible, but I couldn't let this slide.

The South wasn't trying to tear apart the country, they were trying to fix it. Like it or not, as it relates to the Constitution, the South was correct and the Federalist North was incorrect. All powers not given to the US by the Constitution are reserved to the States. The Civil War was the catalist for the bloated bureaucracy of a Federal Government that we see today. The Founding Fathers would be appalled at our federal government.

I don't like my country, I LOVE IT!!! It is the greatest place in the world to live. But it/we could be a helluva lot better.

Had the South won, we would be speaking English. In California, you probably would be speaking Spanish. Oh wait, you already do.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Don't get it twisted Jack, there are racists everywhere, and they represent nearly every race in America too. I have seen racist people in Montana, Idaho, WA, OR, and CA.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone explain how hating the South is any different then hating black people? If you are going to start picking out huge groups of people to hate, at least admit that you are a bigot

[/ QUOTE ]
Has anyone in this thread expressed that they hate southerners? Also, has anyone said that that is different than hating black people?

You're missing the point of this thread. It's not "southerners are bad because they hate black people", it's "the confederate flag has a lot to do w/ racism".

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this. Political liberalism doesn't exclude racism, by any means. Refraining from ethnic slurs doesn't mean that you can't be racist.

I think JoA had some good points about different styles of racism. My southern friends are certainly much freer with the use of the word "[censored]" than people I know from New England, but I'm not sure that their actual attitudes/capabilities as far as relating to black people are that different.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They were better equipped, better armed, baracaded the south with it's navy, and had much larger army

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that is EXACTLY how they "covered the spread".

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem was that the Union soldiers sucked compared to the Rebels. Thus a four-year, bloody war.

The South (and appalachia in particular) still provides the U.S. its best soldiers to this day. Tough, skilled with firearms, know how to fight, can be pretty [censored] mean.

[/ QUOTE ]
The south got owned and they had the better army, okay. I'm not arguing that the Northern soldiers were better or strogner or tougher or anything, who the [censored] cares? That the south was better at war and still lost is only a further testment to their pwnedness imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

One way of looking at it.

Another way is that a starved, ragged, ill-equipped, outnumbered army forced the manufacturing center of the world into four overtimes.

Aside: who's the mod who thinks this cactus thing is a swastika? That's [censored] hilarious.

[/ QUOTE ]
Spin it any way you want, I suppose.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry wacki, but you absolutely suck in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Evan has argued that the symbolism has changed over time and that it now stands for racism. At the same time people in this thread have refused to accept that the symbol might actually mean something to others than rebelling against the north and slavery. People refuse to believe that to some people it might mean state pride, states rights, and those people don't intend to start another civil war.

So I posted pics of the General Lee and black people holding the flag. All the people who claim the flag is only displayed by inbred racists **cough *** Evan and friends ***cough*** have refused to aknowledge the fact that those black people see the flag symbolizing something else.

I find that amazing.

Then clarkmeister jumps in and says something completely unrelated to my original flag=hate symbol post and everyone here and on IRC sucks his balls. He then says something historically inaccurate and people suck his balls even harder.

Well since you guys are only listening to 2+2 icons and I've lost all credibility. I will only ask you to look at the picks I posted once more and then read this El Diablo quote:

I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4038996&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1

He was talking about something else, but I still think it's relevant.

Here is a Blarg quote:


The truth is, doing it any other way just unnecessarily injects your own personal bad feelings into situations where they don't belong, and says nothing about anybody but you.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=4040134

[thatpfunk]

TSC- Once again, regardless of how "american" it was (which I am not exactly denying), they lost. They did not secede. Our country is how it is because they lost. IMO, people who tried to destroy the fabric of what were are supposed to be patriotic about should not be celebrated.

SL- I didn't include politics, learn to [censored] read. Southern [censored] rap evolved in (guess where???) the south, fuckhead. You don't blame a bastardized version of one type of music on the good music that came first. I'm glad that you figured out that I blew the election for John Kerry, I've been nervously waiting for someone to blow my cover. Try making some goddamn sense.

JoA- You are pretty much spot on. Slight disagreement: my best friend from high school now goes to Clemson. We've definetly talked about the race issue (his freshman year roomate asked why he had a picture with his arm around a n----r) and he believes that it is (or at least more out in the open) significantly more racist there. Your classism points are 100% correct, imo.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]true true true. IIRC, the Red Sox were the last team in the majors with a black player. This doesn't happen by accident.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]

if this was 1963, you would be correct. when was the last time you heard a credible athlete make a claim like this? the environment in Boston has changed a TON - go ask Bill Russell about this.

[ QUOTE ]
Political liberalism doesn't exclude racism, by any means. Refraining from ethnic slurs doesn't mean that you can't be racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

fine, but neither of these things make us racist, either.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]true true true. IIRC, the Red Sox were the last team in the majors with a black player. This doesn't happen by accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, excellent. glad to see what was true 40 years ago is automatically assumed to be true today, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[Voltron87]

kneel-

give this one up.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
People refuse to believe that to some people it might mean state pride, states rights, and those people don't intend to start another civil war.


[/ QUOTE ]
No wacki, that's not true. I do not think that NO ONE waves the Confedrate flag without any racist views. I've said that many times. If I put it on Google will you start remembering it?

[ QUOTE ]
So I posted pics of the General Lee and black people holding the flag. All the people who claim the flag is only displayed by inbred racists **cough *** Evan and friends ***cough*** have refused to aknowledge the fact that those black people see the flag symbolizing something else.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good job, you found 5 black people that like the flag. If I find 6 that don't will I be right?

[ QUOTE ]
I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Replace "words" with "pictures" and you sort of just shot yourself in the foot.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Spin it any way you want, I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about since the South was supposed to lose the war instantly, they beat the spread by 4 years. Just admit it Evan, that quote wasn't accurate.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

and El D is exactly right! the majority of people who fly confederate flags are not doing it b/c of 'heritage' or whatever.

just b/c some well meaning people do doesn't mean the majority don't.

for the thousandth time: flying the conf. flag did not become popular until the Civil Rights movements. if the flag really stood for heritage, this would not be the case.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

if this was 1963, you would be correct. when was the last time you heard a credible athlete make a claim like this? the environment in Boston has changed a TON - go ask Bill Russell about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because how a city treats its professional athletes is clearly the best measure of its feelings on race relations.

[ QUOTE ]

fine, but neither of these things make us racist, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that to say Boston is a racist city is a far cry from saying all Bostonians are racists, right? I'm claiming nothing of the sort.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
Replace "words" with "pictures" and you sort of just shot yourself in the foot.

[/ QUOTE ]

EH??????? How is a flag that different than a word. Both are symbols that have interpreted meaning.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Spin it any way you want, I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about since the South was supposed to lose the war instantly, they beat the spread by 4 years. Just admit it Evan, that quote wasn't accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are insane. Can't I just admit that you lost a long time ago and call it a day isntead?

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
They did not secede. Our country is how it is because they lost. IMO, people who tried to destroy the fabric of what were are supposed to be patriotic about should not be celebrated.

[/ QUOTE ] Who is celebrating them? Other Southeners? Can they not celebrate each other, and their history?

No offense, but I think you are off here man. But I do see your point.


[ QUOTE ]
Southern [censored] rap evolved in (guess where???) the south,

[/ QUOTE ] Master P actuallly started out in the Bay Area of Cali. he learned his sound from there, and then took it back to his native Louisiana.

I would say it is far more accurate to say that Southern rap evolved out of West Coast rap. Also, your claim that all Southern rap is garbage is absurd.

Actually do me a favor and don't respond to my last points, the have no relevance to this thread.

First of all, the cactus does not look like a swastika-- it's arms and legs go the wrong ways.

Second, a swastika has a lot of history to it aside from the Nazi aspect. Hell, Girl Scouts in America used it as a symbol prior to WWII

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika


People see what they want to see. It's kind of like an ink blot test. What you make of a symbol says more about yourself than anything else.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

and El D is exactly right! the majority of people who fly confederate flags are not doing it b/c of 'heritage' or whatever.

just b/c some well meaning people do doesn't mean the majority don't.

for the thousandth time: flying the conf. flag did not become popular until the Civil Rights movements. if the flag really stood for heritage, this would not be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kneel, I've never really noticed your posts before, but you'ev been remarkably right int his thread. Challah!

[thatpfunk]

Ccx,
You can't speculate as to where the US would be had the South won because honestly, no one has a freaking clue.

What we don't have to speculate about, however, is what would happen if the North won. Because they did win. And the US is awesome now. So, if you enjoy the awesome-ness of our country I believe that proudly displaying the Confederate flag undermines that.

(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)

Also the silly little shot about speaking spanish was pretty dumb. I am proud to consider myself bilingual, the US has no official language. My post referring to speaking mexican or canadian (honestly, how can people not see that this is a joke) was inferring had the South won then the US would have been taken over by Mexico or Canada.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I long ago tried to stop worrying about words and just focus on people's intentions. If you take a little time to react less impulsively in these situations and try to look beyond the words, perhaps you'll develop a greater understanding and appreciation of who's really bigoted and who isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

and El D is exactly right! the majority of people who fly confederate flags are not doing it b/c of 'heritage' or whatever.

just b/c some well meaning people do doesn't mean the majority don't.

for the thousandth time: flying the conf. flag did not become popular until the Civil Rights movements. if the flag really stood for heritage, this would not be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kneel, I've never really noticed your posts before, but you'ev been remarkably right int his thread. Challah!

[/ QUOTE ]

challah!

[thatpfunk]

tsc, you cannot blame something crappy (southern rap) from what it evolved from (good rap). And I can dislike it, its just my opinion. To me the southern rap scale starts at "pathetically horrible"(most of it) and moves to "funny and mildly entertaining" (Mike Jones, Cash Money Mill.)

And this thread already has a million sub-threads, no reason it shouldn't have another

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)

[/ QUOTE ] stop saying this because you have no proof to back this up.


Anyways, I have work to do and this thread will occupy me if I don't leave right now.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)

[/ QUOTE ] stop saying this because you have no proof to back this up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good old common sense backs it up. Think about the % of people who have somewhat of handle on the politics behind Civil War in the US. I think 25% is a high estimate. Go from there.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


and El D is exactly right! the majority of people who fly confederate flags are not doing it b/c of 'heritage' or whatever.

just b/c some well meaning people do doesn't mean the majority don't.

for the thousandth time: flying the conf. flag did not become popular until the Civil Rights movements. if the flag really stood for heritage, this would not be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kneel, I've never really noticed your posts before, but you'ev been remarkably right int his thread. Challah!

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, is that why the emblem got put on so many states flags in 1894? Because of the civil rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's? Wow, I got totally owned here.

BTW, it's obvious that the flag grew in popularity in the 1950's but to say it wasn't popular before is just ridiculous.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]true true true. IIRC, the Red Sox were the last team in the majors with a black player. This doesn't happen by accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Boston Bruins were the first NHL team with a black player (Willie O'Ree). This doesn't happen by accident.

Wasn't Bill Russell the first black coach of an NBA team?

FYI, everyplace everywhere has its racist contingent. Even OOT.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


and El D is exactly right! the majority of people who fly confederate flags are not doing it b/c of 'heritage' or whatever.

just b/c some well meaning people do doesn't mean the majority don't.

for the thousandth time: flying the conf. flag did not become popular until the Civil Rights movements. if the flag really stood for heritage, this would not be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kneel, I've never really noticed your posts before, but you'ev been remarkably right int his thread. Challah!

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, is that why the emblem got put on so many states flags in 1894? Because of the civil rights movement in the 1950's and 1960's? Wow, I got totally owned here.

BTW, it's obvious that the flag grew in popularity in the 1950's but to say it wasn't popular before is just ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

fine, I'll revise my statement to say that it had a huge popularity gain during the Civil Rights movement

the conclusion remains the same

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)


[/ QUOTE ]

According to a Lewis Harris pole. 68% of the blacks in the south disagree with you.

How many incorrect facts are we going to say in this thread? I'm not even talking opinions, I'm just talking about facts!

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)


[/ QUOTE ]

According to a Lewis Harris pole. 62% of the blacks in the south disagree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, so 62% of blacks in the south feel that more than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights? What a strange pole question.

EDIT: It's also awesome that in the time I was replying, you had to correct your facts. Irony!

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I don't see how the confederate flag represents slavery. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Slavery was a side issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you wouldn't mind explaining which state right, besides the right to slavery, irked the South enough to secede? Funny how there was no push for secession when state's rights were infringed through tariffs (which had not been contentious for almost 30 years when Lincoln was elected).
But somehow once Lincoln, who opposes the further expansion of slavery (and hence the loss of power of slave states in the senate in the future), gets elected they care enough to secede.
I find it highly implausible to claim that state's rights other than slavery, which were not endangered in any way by Lincoln, were sufficient motivation for the South to fight over.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Barry Bonds reply when asked if he'd like to be traded to Boston: Too many racists there.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of the old quote: "I'm not racist - I'm have friends that are black people!"

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]


EDIT: It's also awesome that in the time I was replying, you had to correct your facts. Irony!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll edit again. It was 68% of the blacks nation wide and 92% of the people in the south OF ALL RACES.

Poll was in 1994.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]true true true. IIRC, the Red Sox were the last team in the majors with a black player. This doesn't happen by accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just an extension on this - While the Sox were sticking to their caucasian guns, they chose not to sign Willie Mays, one of the best half-dozen players in history and Bonds' godfather. Probably where BB got the idea.

Gary

[thatpfunk]

wacki,
its pretty naive of you to think that such a large % of people understand the politics behind the civil war when half the people in this country can't identify a picture of the VP or tell you who chopped down the cherry tree. you think they understand the issues of state vs federal govt?

they were given a question. one response makes the respondee sound intelligent and toughtful. the other makes them sound like an idiot. how do you think they would respond?

As for how many incorrect facts I am going to give, well you're bringing up 1, which I still will support regardless of your poll. meanwhile i have asked you two questions (wtf did my criticism of souther pop-culture, the socio-economic situation, and the obesity rate have to do with freedom of speech and where is there HATE found in that statement? and why is the south SO drastically different than CA if we rebelled because the Federal govt is impeding on our states rights?) that you have not bothered to answer.

Big gulps huh? Well, see ya later!

[Jack of Arcades]

It's a private thing that really isn't shown around anyone but her family.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a private thing that really isn't shown around anyone but her family.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it's not racism if you keep it to yourself.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't get it twisted Jack, there are racists everywhere, and they represent nearly every race in America too. I have seen racist people in Montana, Idaho, WA, OR, and CA.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know there are racists everywhere but we're dealing specifically with southern racists. I just think it's really overblown. The racism here might be in general more out in the open but it's more of a begrudging thing, I think. In general I just think down here we get annoyed with other races, but most people don't really hate that many people.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a private thing that really isn't shown around anyone but her family.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it's not racism if you keep it to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh... what? Gotta disagree with you there.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a private thing that really isn't shown around anyone but her family.

[/ QUOTE ]

And it's not racism if you keep it to yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh... what? Gotta disagree with you there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I missed your point then. Obviously (perhaps not obviously enough) I was being sarcastic.

[RacersEdge]

Why is everyone so wrapped up in symbols. I think it's silly.

Signed,

Chief Wahoo

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what a jack ass. Massachusetts is about as liberal a state as they come, and the 2 most popular Red Sox players over the past 10 years have both been Dominican.

[/ QUOTE ]

And Boston is also considered a notoriously racist city. Barry Bonds is far from the first person to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]true true true. IIRC, the Red Sox were the last team in the majors with a black player. This doesn't happen by accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just an extension on this - While the Sox were sticking to their caucasian guns, they chose not to sign Willie Mays, one of the best half-dozen players in history and Bonds' godfather. Probably where BB got the idea.

Gary

[/ QUOTE ]

Boston was forced into school desegregation by Judge Arthur Garrity after most of the rest of the country had already done so.

Also, see:

"Divided We Stand. Is Boston Racist?" Boston Magazine (http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/000790.html)

So, you can spare me the ad hominem attacks, if you please, Zod.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
wacki,
its pretty naive of you to think that such a large % of people understand the politics behind the civil war

[/ QUOTE ]

Just proving 68% of blacks across the nation and up to 92% of southerners of all races don't see it as a racist symbol. You guys countered my historical arguements with "an evolving meaning of hate". You pulled a 5% figure out of your ass, I countered with a real poll.

[ QUOTE ]

they were given a question. one response makes the respondee sound intelligent and toughtful. the other makes them sound like an idiot. how do you think they would respond?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying the black people were afraid to answer the poll about a confederate flag? Digging real deep there aren't we?

[ QUOTE ]
As for how many incorrect facts I am going to give, well you're bringing up 1, which I still will support regardless of your poll.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm so glad your opinions carry so much more weight than facts.


[ QUOTE ]
and why is the south SO drastically different than CA if we rebelled because the Federal govt is impeding on our states rights?) that you have not bothered to answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I have. As I said before, I suggest you read up on why Jefferson Davis never went to trial for treason. The north did not want to lose in court what they won in battle.

Will answer the rest later... food.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
Boston was forced into school desegregation by Judge Arthur Garrity after most of the rest of the country had already done so.

Also, see:

"Divided We Stand. Is Boston Racist?" Boston Magazine (http://www.learntoquestion.com/resources/database/archives/000790.html)

So, you can spare me the ad hominem attacks, if you please, Zod.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a quote from that article:

Racism in Boston, says Ted Landsmark, the black man being attacked in that famous photo, "is no greater than in New York or Chicago or other American cities."

[kenberman]

I'm not sure what poster I made an ad hominem attack on.

anyway, that article - and the point you mention about bussing - both speak to the same basic fact:

Boston has a spotty history re: race relations, but things have changed a lot in recent times.

[thatpfunk]

jesus christ wacki,
you responded to my post that stated less than 5% of the people are flying the confederate flag because they they are proud that the southern people stood up for the rights of the states versus a federal govt that was acting unjustly and inhibiting on their states' freedom.

and you respond with a post about whether people think the flag is racist or not. these two points have little to do with each other. my point is that they are NOT flying the flag for the correct "patriotic" reasons. WTF are you addressing your poll to me for?

ill be looking forward to your apology for all your snide comments.

Regarding Davis: As time passed, many elements changed, and so did the players. U.S. attorneys general came and went (three different men were involved in the Davis case). Andrew Johnson was impeached and nearly convicted. And the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified. Johnson began to fear that if Davis were tried and acquitted--a very real possibility with a Virginia jury--he (Johnson) would be impeached again and removed from office. For a variety of reasons, no significant action was taken until after the 1868 election.
Salmon P. Chase

In an unusual twist, Chase made known to Davis' attorneys, a distinguished group of northern and southern litigators, his opinion that the third section of the 14th Amendment nullified the indictment against Davis. His contention was that by stripping the right to vote from high Confederate officials, a punishment for treasonable activities had been legislated, so Davis could not be punished again for the same crime. Davis' friends reminded his lawyers that Davis (who was in Europe and out of telegraphic range) wanted a trial because he saw it as an opportunity to vindicate both himself and the actions of the Confederacy, i.e. the constitutional right to secede. Davis' lawyers, however, pointed out that Davis' life was at stake, and there was a general agreement that they could not pass up the opportunity to arrange what they believed to be an honorable settlement. One of the attorneys later wrote Davis that the defense team also felt that if they could establish a precedent based on the 14th Amendment, it would lift the threat of prosecution for other Confederate leaders as well.

On November 30, 1868, Davis' lawyers filed a motion requiring that the government attorneys show cause why the indictment (the latest of at least four indictments which had been handed down with the same charge--another long story) should not be quashed. A hearing on the motion was held before Chase and Underwood on December 3-4, and on the 5th they announced their finding. The vote was split--Chase favoring laying aside the indictment, and Underwood, who had overseen the grand juries responsible for the indictment, wanting the case to be tried. Chase's anger with Underwood was obvious, and he stated for the record why he believed the 14th Amendment exempted Davis from further prosecution.

The certificate of division between Chase and Underwood was forwarded to the Supreme Court, and the indictment technically remained pending, but there would be no more action taken. It was clear that Chase would favor overturning a guilty verdict, making the government hesitant to proceed. The Davis case remained on the circuit court docket for February 15, 1869, but the government indicated at that time that it would not prosecute (nolle prosequi). The indictment was, therefore, dismissed, as were indictments against thirty-seven other ex-Confederates, including Robert E. Lee. Davis' lawyers contacted the Justice Department to make sure that other indictments against him in Washington and Tennessee were not going to be prosecuted.
---
This has absolutely nothing to do with my question.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what poster I made an ad hominem attack on.



[/ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

Nothing personal to you, with the Boston theme I was only echoing the words of a famous Jew (I paraphrase): "Before you point out the speck in your neighbor's eye, check out the log in your own."

The South and Southerners are the last 'group' in this country it's PC to take a public [censored] on.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty

[/ QUOTE ]

mea culpa.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

"What a jackass"

Attack the post, not the poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was obviously calling Barry Bonds the jackass.

[/ QUOTE ]
ty

[/ QUOTE ]

mea culpa.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's cool

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
If you wouldn't mind explaining which state right, besides the right to slavery, irked the South enough to secede?


[/ QUOTE ]

To think that slavery was the reason for the Civil War is uninformed.

The only part it played in the war as a political gesture by the North two years into the war to apply pressure on the wavering confederate states, by the Union decreeing free all slaves in the seceeded territories, but still maintained slavery as allowable in Union territory.

Consider that the Emancipation Proclamation, widely considered as the "freeing of slaves" went into effect in 1863, a full two years after the war began.

How can someone think the Civil War was fought over slavery, when it didn't become a factor until two years after the start, and when the North affirmed slavery in loyal states and only called for the freedom of slaves in those states that seceeded?

That's right, its one little tidbit you don't hear the Union sympathizers talk much about, that the Emancipation Proclamation called for the freedom of slaves in the Confederate States only, and did not apply to those states who were still loyal to the Union.

Slavery was allowed and continued in Northern states throughout and even after the war ended, which is about as proof positive to any educated person that the war was NOT a black and white fight over slavery.

To think the North fought the South to free slaves and abolish slavery is a simplistic and incorrect view.

"We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free." - Secretary of State William Steward, 1863

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

ill be looking forward to your apology for all your snide comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

The following in bold had me confused.

[ QUOTE ]
(and as I stated before, less than 5% of Confederate flag-flyers are doing so to celebrate their willingness to do what is correct and fight for states rights)

[/ QUOTE ]

If I misinterpreted that I apologize, but at the time that sure as hell seemed like it meant something else. To be honest, it still does seem like it means something else, but I will recant one of my snide comments.

[thatpfunk]

my estimate had nothing to do with racism, it had to do with the reasoning behind people flying the flag.

if you are an intelligent, informed individual who flies the confederate flag because you believe that it was a proud moment in your regions history because they were standing up to opressors who had no right to try to take away a states' agreed upon rights then I can't really complain. you are celebrating doing what you thought was a correct decision at the time (seceding) and are making a statement regarding the preservation of states rights vs a power hungry federal govt.

i can't object to someone with that stance and belief system, regardless of my personal beliefs. i have to respect a well thought out support of states' rights.

however, i believe that 5% (or less) of the people who are flying that flag today have gone through that line of thinking and come to this conclusion. as I said, it is an estimate simply based on common sense and the lack of informed individuals in our society today.

does that make more sense?

[odellthurman]

Thatpfunk/Wacki/Evan - Are you from the South or live in the South now? Is the Confederate flag shown outside of the South?

My observations of that flag have been limited to the South. I don't recall ever seeing it outside of a Southern state. I have lived in Georgia my entire life (36 years). I haven't done any polling, but the idea that virtually all of the use of the Confederate flag in the South is not racist is laugh out loud ridiculous to me.